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  1. #101
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You misunderstood me. I was saying that it was nonsense what some people in the news report. Flag lapel pins matter nothing to the upcoming election, and, yet, we have news reports about them.

    I also didn't claim that she was irrational, simply that she used racist reasoning. Voting for someone simply based on his or her race is racist. It is. There is no way around it. If a white man were to say, "I am voting for John McCain because he is white," would that not be racist reasoning in action?
    Racist reasoning is irrational.
    She did not use racist reasoning.
    Compassion is not racist reasoning.

    Look only at her motive.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Racist reasoning is irrational.
    She did not use racist reasoning.
    Compassion is not racist reasoning.

    Look only at her motive.
    So if I own a business and only hire whites out of compassion, that's not racist.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #103
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    It's not always black and white.



    (I amuse myself sometimes!)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #104
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Voting for someone simply based on his or her race is racist. It is. There is no way around it.
    If by your use of the term 'racist' you are simply describing the act of noting or distinguishing someone on the basis of their race, then yes. If, however, you are using the term in a way that implies an ideological dislike for races other than the one being distinguished, or any other malicious intent, then I'd say no, not in all cases. At least not if we subscribe to theories of cultural hegemony, like the kind Eileen was describing in an earlier post.

    According to these theories, there is an unequal distribution of power in society. The boundaries between those with more power and those with less are observed to correspond closely with the boundaries of race. This means that one race, (in this case 'white') generally holds more power within society than any other (with 'black' falling in this latter group). It makes sense, therefore, that the representation of someone from the 'black' race in a position of social power, regardless of their particular ideological or political leanings, is a move towards correcting the power imbalance between races.

    So voting for someone on the basis of their race, if the person being voted for belongs to a 'race' that holds less power in society, is not malicious or based on an irrational hatred of other races if the intention in doing so is to equalize the distribution of power between races. If, however, the person being voted for belongs to the 'race' that already holds the most power, then the only possible reason to vote for them on the basis of their race would be out of ideological dislike for other races, since no power imbalance would exist to be corrected on their behalf.

    I think, pure_mercury (and correct me if I'm wrong), that what you are suggesting is that ANY use of 'race' as a distinguishing feature of a candidate is ideologically 'racist'. This would only be true if the races held equal amounts of power in society, in which case the only reason to discriminate based on race would be for ideological reasons, or as a move towards domination over other races. If the amount of power held between races is unequal, as the hegemony theories suggest, then to decry all distinctions based on race as ideologically "racist" is to obfuscate the relationship of power between the races that exists, and automatically maintain the status-quo.

    Of course, as others have correctly pointed out, there are many different 'boundaries' besides the 'racial' kind that correspond to the boundaries of power, such as SEC, geographical location, etc..., which is why it would be foolish to vote for someone purely on the basis of their race. In doing so, one could, for instance, be working to correct the racial power imbalance by voting for a 'black' candidate while at the same time furthering the socio-economic imbalance if that same candidate were a 'corporatist'.

    Anyway, I'll stop rambling now .
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #105
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So if I own a business and only hire whites out of compassion, that's not racist.
    Even I pass for a white in the documents.
    Not on the sidewalk.
    Better be careful.
    Hire only Welshmen

  6. #106
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Well said, whatever.
    This is exactly the point.

    Only racists think things are black and white.

  7. #107
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I have decided two things whilst reading this multi tirade of quotations and soap box speaches.

    We can all agree that racism is bad and racists need help (anyone with a free hand can do this, they just need a little shove and then the freefall off the cliff should do the rest).

    Also I've discovered that there's a whole lot of extraneous complaining about racism. It seems that very few people are actually marginalised themselves but lots of people know a guy who knew someone once who had something done to them which was a bad thing. It's quite appauling how many times people must go through these things and yet they still don't see that one side or the other has to rise above and BE better... not just plan to be or talk about how everyone can improve.

    I also think that I'd like to be in a minority... it's very undermining to be a white male with brown hair and brown eyes... Who can I complain at? Where's my oppression to whine about?

    Anyhow, persecute the persecutors directly, as and when you meet them. This kind of sideways misplaced anger about things which either cannot be corrected or are unrelated to the target of the rage is simply childish.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't think that follows logically, but I understand the mindset. As I said, you have to look at the policies, not the skin color or religion or flag lapel pins or whatever other nonsense people report.
    Sorry, my English is not very good.
    What I meant to say is that, to have a minority represented in a country's government is, in theory at least, good for the minority.
    The reasoning "I don't know anything about Obama, but I will vote him for the only reason that he's black", is racist, I think we all agree to this.
    The reasoning "I agree with the policies of both these two candidates, but I will vote for the one who is black, to help giving a voice to the minority in the government" is not racist. It is maybe a bit simplistic and naive, but I wouldn't call it racist.

  9. #109
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    Sorry, my English is not very good.
    What I meant to say is that, to have a minority represented in a country's government is, in theory at least, good for the minority.
    The reasoning "I don't know anything about Obama, but I will vote him for the only reason that he's black", is racist, I think we all agree to this.
    The reasoning "I agree with the policies of both these two candidates, but I will vote for the one who is black, to help giving a voice to the minority in the government" is not racist. It is maybe a bit simplistic and naive, but I wouldn't call it racist.
    I think that it is racist, in the dictionary definition of the word. It is not, however, bigoted. As I've stated before, there is a difference between those two adjectives.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #110
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Racist reasoning is irrational.
    She did not use racist reasoning.
    Compassion is not racist reasoning.

    Look only at her motive.
    Many whites of the 19th Century thought that rounding up blacks and repatriating them to Africa would be better for both them and for white society. It was "compassionate," in other words. Do you think that sending blacks who had spent their entire lives in the United States and wanted to be free men here should have to go to a continent they've never seen? Is it not racist to want to wish to do so, even if you aren't being malicious in your motives?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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