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  1. #31
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    A rich man is still expected to give up his seat on a "lifeboat" for a woman, regardless of status.
    these days, an economically endowed man would have more daggers stared at him than a poor one would if he were to "steal" a seat by not handing it off to a woman. he would be slated with accusations of the lowest form of selfishness for doing the human thing.

    lol
    we fukin won boys

  2. #32
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Well the military was only one example, but I can't think of any feminists I know that would say it's right for men to have to die before women...
    I can think of few other examples where your life is more at risk "institutionally", than conscription. Millions upon millions of men have died upon the battlefield for country and society and sometimes because they were made to.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    I know there was some controversy surrounding the setting up of a men's center in Toronto. I'm really hoping it was unfounded.

    To get back on the topic of male disposability I would say fire fighting is an excellent example of a dangerous profession in which men dominate. It does however seem to be men themselves who prevent and preserve the fire fighting occupation as an exclusively male area, rather than a misandrist society acting from a belief that women are too valuable to put in harm's way in comparison to the worthless male!

    Dug up these for you

    https://www.aclu.org/blog/lgbt-right...not-fire-truck
    http://www.i-women.org/issues.php?issue=9
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_i...Discrimination

    One can imagine women would have to face similar misogyny in other traditionally male areas. Add to this the still ever so strong gender roles that firefighter/soldier = men and I would say explanation for the lack of women in these professions is given.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  4. #34
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    A settlement of 10 men and 300 women is going to do better than a settlement of 10 women and 300 men.
    Sure, just like it only takes a few men to herd cattle. It's from the standpoint of women as property & what their value lies in, not being more valuable than men. The point is that feminism didn't create disposability of men & that is not the actual meaning behind those traditions. To continue to argue the "disposability" point ignores the root of such mentalities.

    The Chinese aren't going to clamor for women to have equal legal responsibility for aged parents if women don't have equal opportunity financially. Since women have traditionally been property, they didn't have the same earning power & would not be regarded as being as capable. It's kind of a vicious cycle - not seen as capable, not given opportunity, not as capable due to lack of opportunity, etc. This is why offering equal opportunity has been seen as the cycle ender.

    I understand that some men see "benefits" of equal opportunity for women without seeing equal responsibilities taken on, but hardcore feminists want the responsibility equal too. They actually WANT women in war, men to get paternity leave, for it to be socially acceptable for men to be stay-at-home-dads, etc. I won't comment on my own view here, except to say I think people view "equality" in far too black and white terms (no racial pun intended).

    Concerning gender roles....women in reality aren't having their cake & eating it too. In many two income families (which seems to be the average family), the woman works full-time also, but is still the primary caretaker of the home & children. This is increased burden, not someone chucking a gender role & its responsibilities without fully taking on the responsibilities of the "equal" role. If you want too see the full responsibility taken on, then then old gender role responsibilities have to be divvied up - meaning men have to take on some of them. Men certainly have, and this means they should get some privileges too (ie. paternity leave), but interestingly, a lot of men don't want those perks. Just like many women don't take the opportunity to be garbage truck drivers (they don't value that opportunity).

    IDK if it was discussed in the prior thread with this video, but in some similar thread we discussed social value & genders. Basically, men aren't as interested in taking on females roles because it doesn't add value to them, so its just extra burden without perks. This is likely because the association with these female "jobs" is a role that basically was seen as inferior to men - being property or just weak mentally & emotionally. Whereas for women, since the male role is seen as being a stronger, smarter, more capable individual than a woman, it increases her personal value to take on its responsibilities. However, if opportunity is equal & so is responsibility, in theory, people not taking either will experience the consequences and/or perks for doing so. I think the "in theory" part is not being played out, but there's unfairness for both genders, IMO. I'm not interested in pitting genders against each other for who has it worse & who is really the awful one taking advantage of the other. I think most people just innocently operate within the system that is normal for their time.

    I can see why men aren't too keen on divvying stuff up, because they've had the upper hand for so long & it looks like trading down. Or perhaps in their minds, things were fair, because even though women were property men made sacrifices to protect them as property.

    This lady just doesn't make a good case for what is fair & what is not. I'm not saying a case cannot be made, but her reasoning is not impressive.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #35
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Sure, just like it only takes a few men to herd cattle. It's from the standpoint of women as property & what their value lies in, not being more valuable than men. The point is that feminism didn't create disposability of men & that is not the actual meaning behind those traditions.
    Agreed, nor have I claimed so. Additionally the video was about how Feminism interacts with Male Disposability, not begat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    To continue to argue the "disposability" point ignores the root of such mentalities.
    I am not so much concerned about the root let alone arguing it, but rather other men's opinions on the matter. Specifically the questions I asked in the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The Chinese aren't going to clamor for women to have equal legal responsibility for aged parents if women don't have equal opportunity financially. Since women have traditionally been property, they didn't have the same earning power & would not be regarded as being as capable. It's kind of a vicious cycle - not seen as capable, not given opportunity, not as capable due to lack of opportunity, etc. This is why offering equal opportunity has been seen as the cycle ender.
    It is not their capabilities but other reasons why women are discriminated against, specifically maternity issues. "Many employers are choosing not to hire women in an economy where there is an oversupply of labor and women are perceived as bringing additional expense in the form of maternity leave and childbirth costs. The law stipulates that employers must help cover those costs, and feminists are seeking a system of state-supported childbirth insurance to lessen discrimination." Here have a read: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/wo...anted=all&_r=0

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I understand that some men see "benefits" of equal opportunity for women without seeing equal responsibilities taken on, but hardcore feminists want the responsibility equal too. They actually WANT women in war, men to get paternity leave, for it to be socially acceptable for men to be stay-at-home-dads, etc. I won't comment on my own view here, except to say I think people view "equality" in far too black and white terms (no racial pun intended).
    I get this and agree. I would like to point out that men can already take paternity leave, it's called the Family Medical Leave Act. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_...ve_Act_of_1993 The National Partnership for Women and Families was the chief advocate for this. You can call it the National Partnership for Little Green Men and Gremlins for all I care, I'm just glad we have it. As for the acceptability of stay at home dads, househusbands as it were, I think we are already there. However as long as women in the U.S. continue to be hypergamous men are not going to pursue these qualities.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Concerning gender roles....women in reality aren't having their cake & eating it too. In many two income families (which seems to be the average family), the woman works full-time also, but is still the primary caretaker of the home & children. This is increased burden, not someone chucking a gender role & its responsibilities without fully taking on the responsibilities of the "equal" role. If you want too see the full responsibility taken on, then then old gender role responsibilities have to be divvied up - meaning men have to take on some of them. Men certainly have, and this means they should get some privileges too (ie. paternity leave), but interestingly, a lot of men don't want those perks. Just like many women don't take the opportunity to be garbage truck drivers (they don't value that opportunity).
    Taking FMLA can diminish your competitiveness. You lose time from work and if you have a hyper competitive job were you put in 50-60 hours per week, it matters how you are perceived. Over time the person who puts in more hours at the job is going to do better than his/her peers.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    IDK if it was discussed in the prior thread with this video, but in some similar thread we discussed social value & genders. Basically, men aren't as interested in taking on females roles because it doesn't add value to them, so its just extra burden without perks. This is likely because the association with these female "jobs" is a role that basically was seen as inferior to men - being property or just weak mentally & emotionally. Whereas for women, since the male role is seen as being a stronger, smarter, more capable individual than a woman, it increases her personal value to take on its responsibilities. However, if opportunity is equal & so is responsibility, in theory, people not taking either will experience the consequences and/or perks for doing so. I think the "in theory" part is not being played out, but there's unfairness for both genders, IMO. I'm not interested in pitting genders against each other for who has it worse & who is really the awful one taking advantage of the other. I think most people just innocently operate within the system that is normal for their time.
    I'm seeing a pattern here.

    Show me a woman that has married down and I will show you 20 who married laterally or up. Ok, I made up 20, but it's quite high Until that changes men are not going to adapt for a competitive edge in the mating game. Marrying/cohabitating a male caretaker is definitely a down grade for most women. Men want women and do all kinds of crazy, funny yet rational things to partner with one, we know the score and when women start actually valuing male caretakers in action instead of just words, we will continue to do what is proven to work.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Show me a woman that has married down and I will show you 20 who married laterally or up. Ok, I made up 20, but it's quite high Until that changes men are not going to adapt for a competitive edge in the mating game. Marrying/cohabitating a male caretaker is definitely a down grade for most women. Men want women and do all kinds of crazy, funny yet rational things to partner with one, we know the score and when women start actually valuing male caretakers in action instead of just words, we will continue to do what is proven to work.
    I don't understand what you are getting at here. Can you explain and expand please?
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  7. #37
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    I am not a man but this is a very interesting topic and one that I do feel is valid. I watched only until about 4:15 in the OP video and the whole video posted directly above. The men in my family seem to embrace the responsabilities of being fathers and husbands, but I would say that the above video totally points to some of the reasons my father never remarried when my parents divorced. Regarding the "disposability factor", I do see that as a real thing in our culture though I personally do not treat men that way. Most of the men I know though would probably insist on putting me or other women first, and see that as the correct and respectful corse of action. That said, I know there are plenty of men who wouldn't. As a woman, I appreciate a man who "shoulders the risk" so to speak but I'd never want him to feel like that was his only value to me.
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  8. #38
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Male disposability would be relevant, if you start looking on society the superficial way. Since woman attract via their apperance they seem to be the more important gender, but they are as quickly dead with a bullet to the head like a man. Since woman are attracted to words, men seem more ressourceful but are as quickly dead also.

    Bottom line is: everyone is disposeable. You just need a good aim.

  9. #39
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I don't understand what you are getting at here. Can you explain and expand please?
    Women tend to marry up or "laterally". By up and down etc. I am referring to social value & status, which are things like earning power, fame & prestige, accomplishments, resources, access to social networks etc. An example would be a well educated female doctor not really being interested in marrying a manager at the local pharmacy or a plumber. The "benefit" has to be worth it and the natural tendency is to leverage their high status into access to higher value mates or an equal.

    One way a male gains status and social value, the traditional role, is to get an education, establish a career and achieve earning power and acquire resources. Being a competent caregiver is not valued by women at large, so men don't pursue it since it will not translate into a large/r selection of potential mates. Although many women "say" they value these qualities, their actions say otherwise.

    I'm posting that the day a lot of women start to value these traits by actually marring and seeking out men with these qualities for partnerships will you see men change. Women are the gate keepers in this regard. Men will continue to pursue traditional roles until women stop wanting men like that.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #40
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Women tend to marry up or "laterally".
    I married my husband because I loved him.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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