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  1. #21
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    I like her.
    Me too!!! I recommend checking out more of her videos.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    However, economic power/potential can drastically affect men's value. A man with a lot of providing potential is usually valued much more than women in an equivalent position, while a poor man is in the worst possible position.
    A rich man is still expected to give up his seat on a "lifeboat" for a woman, regardless of status.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Where to start . . .

    This video does raise some valid points, especially when speaking about limited lifesaving measures. On the whole, however, it is filled with sweeping and unsupported generalizations, and misses several important points.

    1. When women have/do come first, it has not been because their inherent humanity is valued more, but simply because their reproductive capacity is valued more, for the biological imperatives described in the video. Yes, "When it comes to producing babies, every woman counts", but in other spheres of activity, women have often not counted for much. Grouping all feminists together is one of the unsupported generalizations in the video, but one generalization that probably is valid is that feminists tend to resist any system or philosophy that sees women primarily as reproductive vessels. Indeed, it is this valuation that must be overcome for men to be given those "seats in the lifeboat" on the same terms as women.

    2. Female children frequently do not get the same attention and provision, whether emotional or material, as male. In many times and places, they have been thrown away at birth via infanticide. In modern times, they can be aborted, especially in places like China with its one-child policy. Note that China hardly falls into the category of backward or unsuccessful nations, as the speaker depicts Afghanistan.

    3. Putting children before men makes sense, as children are the future. For the same reason, children would come before women. If there is room for a few adults in the lifeboat with the children, the expectation that caring for children is women's role is probably what lands women those remaining seats.

    4. Regarding work-related injuries: in the modern age, men's workplace injuries far exceed those of women, primarily because women have been excluded from the more dangerous (and often more lucrative) occupations. Male injuries are coming down because of improved safety practices and requirements. In earlier times, working conditions for both men and women were often dangerous. In the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, five times as many women died as men. I wonder how typical this gender ratio was in the unsafe sweatshops and factories of that period.

    5. This speaker has odd ideas on child rearing. She says she doesn't want to hear her child cry; she should worry more if her child didn't cry. The many people I know who have/had small babies don't leave boys to cry while pampering girls. This speaker claims to be a mother. Perhaps that was her style of parenting. I agree that boys in general are taught to reign in their emotions whereas girls are taught to indulge them, along with many other conscious and unconscious gender distinctions. All of this is a double-edged sword, though. Any advantages given to women in social preference and behavioral license come at the cost of learned dependence and weakness.

    6. Feminism, defined as supporting equality of opportunity and equality under the law for women, cannot succeed if men are held to traditional gender roles while women abandon them. For women to enjoy opportunities and take on responsibilities hitherto limited to men, men must similarly be free to take on the traditional opportunities and responsibilities of women. Funny how reluctant so many of them have been to do this. (It might have something to do with the nature of those opportunities and responsibilities . . . ) Fortunately, that is starting to change.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Ok phew... Ive seen ppl on here getting upset if people not from their target demographic responded... didn't wanna cause a ruckus.

    Yeah I saw the whole thing, but yeah, she did seem to think women are pretty entitled, but I think it goes both ways. When I clicked initially I thought the "disposability" was gonna go a totally different direction, like if "men are no longer breadwinners and no longer protecting women, etc. then why do you even want us around?" sort of thing, which I guess she touches upon, but it was more about the actual physical disposability, which makes sense in a historical context - as she explains - but not so much now. And I would say a lot of feminists are arguing for that too, like with women in the army, etc.
    I don't even think that makes sense. Historically, male infants have been more valued than female infants. If a child must be sacrificed, then it's a female. Female infanticide & abortion of female fetuses in India & China are current problems causing an imbalance in the male-female ratio of their population. Female children have always been treated as more "disposable" than male children.

    I believe this video was discussed in another thread before, because I recall responding to it at length. I remember noting: She fails to mention that male disposability may be (& probably is) more related to the long-held idea of men being stronger, more powerful, more intelligent, etc and therefore having the responsibility to care for the weaker (which was their own system, being the dominant ones socially). It's not about being worth less, but actually the idea that they are capable of MORE, so they felt they had to protect the weak. Women being lumped with children says a lot about why the women were being saved above men - they were seen as weaker, like children, & in need of protection, not more valuable. The other aspect is women & children were property; men died for land also because they were defending their property. Women didn't die for land in war because they didn't own any & they were property also.

    Her view is always too one-sided & doesn't consider other interpretations of "facts" especially in the broader context. I guess that's true of most views, but she'd make a better case if she actually knew history.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #25
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    1. When women have/do come first, it has not been because their inherent humanity is valued more, but simply because their reproductive capacity is valued more, for the biological imperatives described in the video. Yes, "When it comes to producing babies, every woman counts", but in other spheres of activity, women have often not counted for much. Grouping all feminists together is one of the unsupported generalizations in the video, but one generalization that probably is valid is that feminists tend to resist any system or philosophy that sees women primarily as reproductive vessels. Indeed, it is this valuation that must be overcome for men to be given those "seats in the lifeboat" on the same terms as women.
    She has stated in other videos that when she says feminist, she is not talking about the dictionary definition nor your typical coffee shop feminist, but rather the feminist activist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    2. Female children frequently do not get the same attention and provision, whether emotional or material, as male. In many times and places, they have been thrown away at birth via infanticide. In modern times, they can be aborted, especially in places like China with its one-child policy. Note that China hardly falls into the category of backward or unsuccessful nations, as the speaker depicts Afghanistan.
    Did you know that a handful of countries, such as China, India, France and Ukraine, require adult children to financially support their parents? Similar laws are in place in 29 U.S. states, Puerto Rico and most of Canada, but they are rarely enforced because government aid helps support the old. In Singapore, adult children who do not give their parents an allowance can face six months in jail…

    More than 1,000 parents in China have sued their children for financial support over the last 15 years. But the law now goes further to require that adult children regularly visit their parents (recent law change in 2013). Employers are required to give workers time off to do so, although that provision may be hard to enforce.

    In China only males have this obligation culturally and legally to support their parents. Females are exempt. Given that, what do you think happens when you have a 1 child rule? If people wanted to "fix" this all they need to do is make females equally obligated to support their parents and I'd guess that the male to female birth rate would change over night. Strangely, there is no outcry among female Chinese for this to change. I imagine they want the benefits without the obligations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    4. Regarding work-related injuries: in the modern age, men's workplace injuries far exceed those of women, primarily because women have been excluded from the more dangerous (and often more lucrative) occupations. Male injuries are coming down because of improved safety practices and requirements. In earlier times, working conditions for both men and women were often dangerous. In the Triangle Shirtwaist fire, 123 women and 23 men died. I wonder how typical this gender ratio was in the unsafe sweatshops and factories of that period.
    Here is a link to an article on the subject http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquely...dliest-jobs-2/ or you can just check out BLS's site. You will note that these jobs, while not female dominated are quite "open" to women, who choose not to do them, i.e. trucking & warehousing. Overall 92% of all work related deaths were men, for 2012, not quite 19 in 20. The average office job is about as dangerous as the average living room nowadays. You really believe women are excluded from the fishing industry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    6. Feminism, defined as supporting equality of opportunity and equality under the law for women, cannot succeed if men are held to traditional gender roles while women abandon them. For women to enjoy opportunities and take on responsibilities hitherto limited to men, men must similarly be free to take on the traditional opportunities and responsibilities of women. Funny how reluctant so many of them have been to do this. (It might have something to do with the nature of those opportunities and responsibilities . . . ) Fortunately, that is starting to change.
    Women continue to be hypergamous (in the U.S.) and as long as that is in play men will continue to pursue standard gender roles in order to acquire status and social value and offer resources/status to their partnerships.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I think this 'backlash' of feminism is only seen in 'developed' places in developed countries. In other parts of the world, feminism hasn't 'won' yet, and most women are still oppressed.

    But then again, I think this is just part of the negotiation process of creating new gender roles -- or maybe doing away 'gender roles' altogether.

    I also watched the second video about why men have everything to lose regarding marriage, and to be honest, I thought 'Really?'. I feel that this is part of the whole "men be like this, women be like that" thing that is going on, and we should really move away from this. Maybe I'm terribly naive, but what about love and caring about your partner, and communication? I believe we are capable of better things. In the end, I think it's about two people and how they choose to have their relationship, and that should be a personal thing not defined by 'science' of any sort.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  7. #27
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I believe this video was discussed in another thread before, because I recall responding to it at length. I remember noting: She fails to mention that male disposability may be (& probably is) more related to the long-held idea of men being stronger, more powerful, more intelligent, etc and therefore having the responsibility to care for the weaker (which was their own system, being the dominant ones socially). It's not about being worth less, but actually the idea that they are capable of MORE, so they felt they had to protect the weak. Women being lumped with children says a lot about why the women were being saved above men - they were seen as weaker, like children, & in need of protection, not more valuable. The other aspect is women & children were property; men died for land also because they were defending their property. Women didn't die for land in war because they didn't own any & they were property also.
    A settlement of 10 men and 300 women is going to do better than a settlement of 10 women and 300 men.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I think this 'backlash' of feminism is only seen in 'developed' places in developed countries. In other parts of the world, feminism hasn't 'won' yet, and most women are still oppressed.

    But then again, I think this is just part of the negotiation process of creating new gender roles -- or maybe doing away 'gender roles' altogether.

    I also watched the second video about why men have everything to lose regarding marriage, and to be honest, I thought 'Really?'. I feel that this is part of the whole "men be like this, women be like that" thing that is going on, and we should really move away from this. Maybe I'm terribly naive, but what about love and caring about your partner, and communication? I believe we are capable of better things. In the end, I think it's about two people and how they choose to have their relationship, and that should be a personal thing not defined by 'science' of any sort.
    Men tend to not initiate marriage, when they do it's often to keep their partner happy and the partnership. Cost benefit analysis is a part of the decision making process. To some it's quite simple but others weigh things quite rationally and consider the likely hood of divorce and the consequences of that. In the event of a divorce men are pretty much screwed in every department. Heck women initiate divorce more often as well, in the 70% range. Most common reason? Dissatisfaction. Go figure, first they want to marry then they want a divorce, 13 years on avg.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    A rich man is still expected to give up his seat on a "lifeboat" for a woman, regardless of status.
    Maybe "expected" but not actually done. In other words there is no such thing as female privilege in the area of maritime disasters.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...56109.abstract

    I've watched this speaker's videos before. She is an MRA or at least widely supported by internet men's rights activists (not to be confused with actual activists for men's rights!). For more info on this delightful internet mushroom go here. http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  10. #30
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    A rich man is still expected to give up his seat on a "lifeboat" for a woman, regardless of status.
    True, but in an extreme scenario most people would save him instead of one of his female servants.

    Meh, it's tricky.

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