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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Oh i know, and I wouldn't. I...have a hard time in relating as a Euro and my post was mostly a joke, but there is a serious element to it. As I stated in my previous post...it would seem to me that fewer lethal mistakes yet equal protection would be provided in this way. Or am I wrong here?
    Even if you could guarantee no criminal could ever get their hands on a gun, I would still want one. The reasons are two fold.

    Number 1: I'm into guns, much the same way I'm into cars. If you've ever seen my Car Thread you know I'm really into cars. Like obsessively.

    I'm into guns in the same way, but feel much less comfortable discussing that passion on Typo-c because if I did, I would be asked to justify why I own a gun (which I don't need to by the way, you have to justify taking it away from me) every other post.

    I'd love to do a range report after I buy the Heckler and Koch (P30L or USP 9) I've had my eye on and share some of that passion with you guys. And I probably will now that I've started this thread.

    Number 2: Even in a world where criminals can't get guns they can gang up on you, or use any number of nasty implements to harm you. Now I did MMA for a while, and I'm not a small man, but I'm not so arrogant as to assume I'm gonna be able to go all bruce lee super ninja when three guys stick me up with lead pipes. Even with a knife thats still a lose lose for me. Yea I might (maybe) be able to do serious damage to two of them, but even in a best case scenario the third guy gets me.

    With a gun and proper training, which I strongly (emphatically) recommend anyone considering carrying or owning a firearm receive, those three guys' chances of besting me go down precipitously. And that goes for anyone.

    Without guns, whoever's the most athletic, largest, with the best training (or most buddies helping him) wins. That stops being the case when concealed carry or open carry are introduced.

    We don't live in that hypothetical world where criminals can't find guns. And with 300 million + guns in the country, even if you stopped all legal gun purchases today the extant supply would fuel the black markets for the next 100 years at least. And you can't convince me that any effort to come take everyone's guns would end well. It's politically impossible, and you would end up with many dead agents and civilians before you got half way through rounding them all up.

    In a world where the government can't guarantee my safety, it's my right as a human being to be able to defend myself on equal footing to any threat that might present itself.

  2. #12
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    Actually I seem to recall a rather infamous gun massacre in Port Arthur in Australia, not too long ago. Martin Bryant anyone? So saying that the video is something I cant relate to mainly because in my country we aren't militarised as a society. Getting into a gun fight isn't exactly something I am likely to come across in my lifetime. I don't have a broadsword or ninja stars either for 'self defence', defence from what? Not judging just saying that coming across someone with a weapon isn't a common occurence here and so owning a weapon just doesn't cross my mind.

  3. #13
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    How common are home invasions in the US?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #14
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Even if you could guarantee no criminal could ever get their hands on a gun, I would still want one. The reasons are two fold.

    Number 1: I'm into guns, much the same way I'm into cars. If you've ever seen my Car Thread you know I'm really into cars. Like obsessively.

    I'm into guns in the same way, but feel much less comfortable discussing that passion on Typo-c because if I did, I would be asked to justify why I own a gun (which I don't need to by the way, you have to justify taking it away from me) every other post.

    I'd love to do a range report after I buy the Heckler and Koch (P30L or USP 9) I've had my eye on and share some of that passion with you guys. And I probably will now that I've started this thread.

    Number 2: Even in a world where criminals can't get guns they can gang up on you, or use any number of nasty implements to harm you. Now I did MMA for a while, and I'm not a small man, but I'm not so arrogant as to assume I'm gonna be able to go all bruce lee super ninja when three guys stick me up with lead pipes. Even with a knife thats still a lose lose for me. Yea I might (maybe) be able to do serious damage to two of them, but even in a best case scenario the third guy gets me.

    With a gun and proper training, which I strongly (emphatically) recommend anyone considering carrying or owning a firearm receive, those three guys' chances of besting me go down precipitously. And that goes for anyone.

    Without guns, whoever's the most athletic, largest, with the best training (or most buddies helping him) wins. That stops being the case when concealed carry or open carry are introduced.

    We don't live in that hypothetical world where criminals can't find guns. And with 300 million + guns in the country, even if you stopped all legal gun purchases today the extant supply would fuel the black markets for the next 100 years at least. And you can't convince me that any effort to come take everyone's guns would end well. It's politically impossible, and you would end up with many dead agents and civilians before you got half way through rounding them all up.

    In a world where the government can't guarantee my safety, it's my right as a human being to be able to defend myself on equal footing to any threat that might present itself.
    Ok..I hear you. Im not trying to take it away from you. All I'm hypothetically and semi-jokingly suggesting is that you substitute the bullet with a poison dart instead, while retaining all the benefits you listed. Would it take so much away from the hobby/ability to defend yourself?

    Even if the bad guys have bullets or knives...all you need is to be quicker with a poison dart, much like you would with a bullet, right?

    On top of that - and maybe that's in part coz I've never handled a gun, but still - I think coz I'm a person who is not willing to harm others, I'm much more likely to be less hesitant in using a poison dart gun on someone I perceive to be a threat, knowing it won't leave lasting damage, than I would be using a bullet
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    He trailed off on what has to be the logical conclusion for his argument - that people are going to want to even the playing field in order to defend themselves, even if they purchase military grade weapons. Even though assault rifles boast an intimidating amount of versatility, an assault rifle doesn't serve as the best tool for self-defense in every occasion, especially in the unlikely event of foreign invasion or terrorist attack. That said, how is this not about how assault rifles, in particular, make him feel?

    ps- I enjoy the pastime of unloading some lead onto a firing range, with semi-automatic or automatic weapons. Doesn't matter. I'm just raising questions here.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Ok..I hear you. Im not trying to take it away from you.
    That's a very good start.

    All I'm hypothetically and semi-jokingly suggesting is that you substitute the bullet with a poison dart instead, while retaining all the benefits you listed.
    I would not want to respond to a situation where lethal force is about to be used against me with anything less than lethal force.

    In a kinder gentler world, the dart gun would be very effective. Short of a gun it sounds like about the best thing there is. But that's just it, it's not as powerful as a gun, and I would worry that if they could tell it was a dart gun they would not give a shit if I shot them with it. Many times just presenting a gun (or letting the aggressor know that your are armed and ready) is enough to de-escalate the threat, I don't think that would necessarily be the case with a dart gun.

    Would it take so much away from the hobby/ability to defend yourself?
    I would need to know more about the parameters of the thought experiment, ie what kind of threat I was facing, to decide how much of a negative impact a dart gun would have on my ability to defend myself.

    Without question, having darts would detract from my hobby, there is nothing better than the gong sound a bullet makes when it hits a steel target. For example...



    Even if the bad guys have bullets or knives...all you need is to be quicker with a poison dart, much like you would with a bullet, right?
    I'm fucked if they have guns. Bullets can go through car doors, walls and many other things, darts cannot.

    But without having a gun, having that dart gun sounds like the next best thing.

    On top of that - and maybe that's in part coz I've never handled a gun, but still - I think coz I'm a person who is not willing to harm others, I'm much more likely to be less hesitant in using a poison dart gun on someone I perceive to be a threat, knowing it won't leave lasting damage, than I would be using a bullet
    Then I would absolutely recommend a dart gun for you my dear.

    I even think it would be a sound business idea to invent a tactical dart for those uncomfortable with guns.

    As for myself, I think you already know which I would choose.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Even though assault rifles boast an intimidating amount of versatility, an assault rifle doesn't serve as the best tool for self-defense in every occasion, especially in the unlikely event of foreign invasion or terrorist attack.
    They are the most powerful weapon you can own here (without jumping through a whole lot of legal hoops), and it is thus the best thing to protect you in any situation, that is unless I can get my hands on a Bradley fighting vehicle or an A-10 warthog.

    I would rather have an ar15 short barreled rifle for home defense than anything else. I got 30rnds of 2000+fps stop you dead. I'd rather clear a house with a short barreled AR than anything except maybe this (with the short barrel not the barrel in the video)...



    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    That said, how is this not about how assault rifles, in particular, make him feel?
    It's about that as well. We like shooting guns.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawbawbowba View Post
    22 million population isn't even a society. Put another roo on the barbie.
    It's true we are not a civilization, we are part of a civilization called Western Civilization, 3,500 years old.

    And the leader of Western Civilization today is the USA. That is why we want the USA to serve as good example.

    The USA claims to be a Light on the Hill to show the way to the rest of Western Civilization.

    And the USA teaches the doctrine of American Exceptionalism where America provides an example for the rest of us to follow.

    But we are determined not to follow the USA into gun massacres of civilians and school children.

    Do listen to your Meryl Streep. She is making a movie on this very topic.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    In a world where the government can't guarantee my safety, it's my right as a human being to be able to defend myself on equal footing to any threat that might present itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Officer Smith
    I'm going to say something here that is going to raise some hackles. Then I'm going to explain my statements and, hopefully, make everyone buy it. Here we go. Ready?

    Buy a gun. Get a bat. Own some weapon and have enough skill to use it to save your own life and the lives of your family members. DO NOT RELY ON THE POLICE TO SAVE YOUR LIFE FOR YOU.

    Wait. What's this? What heresy are you speaking of? Officer Smith, are you really telling me not to rely on the police to protect me? What about that "Protect and Serve" horse shit plastered all over the sides of their patrol cars? Aren't they SUPPOSED to protect me?

    Now, let me explain.
    http://officersmith.blogspot.com/201...lp-police.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Ok..I hear you. Im not trying to take it away from you. All I'm hypothetically and semi-jokingly suggesting is that you substitute the bullet with a poison dart instead, while retaining all the benefits you listed. Would it take so much away from the hobby/ability to defend yourself?

    Even if the bad guys have bullets or knives...all you need is to be quicker with a poison dart, much like you would with a bullet, right?
    With a handgun you have the ability to immediately fire additional shots if the first one doesn't take and/or there are multiple attackers. You also have greater accuracy, range, and penetration, like Disco mentioned.

    This is pretty much a textbook CQB/Mozambique drill:



    On top of that - and maybe that's in part coz I've never handled a gun, but still - I think coz I'm a person who is not willing to harm others, I'm much more likely to be less hesitant in using a poison dart gun on someone I perceive to be a threat, knowing it won't leave lasting damage, than I would be using a bullet
    I would never advocate that you (or anyone else for that matter) carry a gun if you're not comfortable with that and know you know would be unwilling to use it.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It's true we are not a civilization, we are part of a civilization called Western Civilization, 3,500 years old.

    And the leader of Western Civilization today is the USA. That is why we want the USA to serve as good example.

    The USA claims to be a Light on the Hill to show the way to the rest of Western Civilization.

    And the USA teaches the doctrine of American Exceptionalism where America provides an example for the rest of us to follow.

    But we are determined not to follow the USA into gun massacres of civilians and school children.

    Do listen to your Meryl Streep. She is making a movie on this very topic.
    "The vanity of the natives led them therefore to concentrate their enthusiasm on a rejected statue of commerce intended for the Suez Canal. This they had purchased at secondhand and grandiloquently labelled "Liberty enlightening the World". They had been prophetic enough to put it on an island with its back to the mainland."

    -Aleister Crowley

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