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  1. #11
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony
    Someone could conceiveably work very hard and still barely make ends meet and someone else could succeed just because they happen to have the right connections or just get really lucky, not so much because they work hard.
    It's not about working hard but having opportunities. There is an oil boom in North Dakota and in Midland, Texas right now. The unemployment rates in those areas is around 2.6%. The average starting salary is close to $100,000/year. Even fast food workers are making $15/hour because there is a shortage of labor in those places. As a supply-sider, I think we should replicate what's going on in those areas by encouraging fracking, building the Keystone Pipeline, and letting the oil companies drill in Anwar and off the California coast. Lefties don't want that and because of lefty policies, about 10 million people aren't being employed in good jobs. Former Shell Oil CEO, John Hofmeister said we could create 10 million jobs in the next 6 years if the government got off the back of the oil industry.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #12
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    According to Art Laffer (one of Reagan's economic advisors), every quintile saw their income increase from 1983 to 1989 (adjusted for inflation). He picked 1983 as the starting point because that's when the bulk of Reagan's tax cuts took place. The lowest quintile saw a 6% increase in their median salary.
    Inflation was in the double digits when Reagan took office and wasn't reduced years after he took office. By 1983, inflation should have diminished the purchasing power of the median salary of the lowest quintile by well over 20%. At best, the 6% increase should decrease that figure to 14%, however, you've claimed that these figures are adjusted for inflation. Can you cite the source for that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I agree completely and the evidence is very clear that lefty positions such as anti-school choice and over-regulation make it almost impossible for the poor to escape their situation.
    Please expound upon the thesis that left-leaning policies diminish upward mobility. What do you mean by "anti-school" and "over-regulation"? Can you cite specific examples of this phenomenon?



    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    There's no need for opinion on the matter; we have numbers from the Reagan era. Under Reagan, a greater percentage of the bottom quintile people moved up than the middle and top quintiles. I would refer you to Art Laffer's 2008 book "The End of Prosperity".
    I'd like to see some of these numbers? Can you cite some basic data from that book and provide us with a link?



    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    There is a third alternative and that's to address the root causes of poverty: dropping out of school, having kids out of wedlock, being stuck in a bad school, and over-regulation that discourages entrepreneurship.
    Can you cite specific statistics regarding how "over-regulation" undermines entrepreneurship?



    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Here is another example where lefty policies harm society. Most lefties oppose the death penalty, gun rights,
    There is clear evidence that extended prison terms deter crime, but virtually no evidence that the death penalty does. According to the authors of Freakonomics, (http://www.amazon.com/Freakonomics-R...s=Freakanomics), the death penalty is implemented so infrequently, that no reasonable criminal should be deterred by it. To corroborate that claim, one may note that states such as Texas and Louisiana that execute a very high number of inmates have a much higher violent crime rate than Maine or Massachusetts where the death penalty is not practiced. On the other hand, loose gun controls generally miscreants with the weapons needed to commit violent crimes. Although they are unable to buy them at stores, they are often able to acquire firearms at the black market. Therefore, loose gun control laws are more likely to increase the incidence of violent crime, not lower it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I don't think raising taxes will reduce crime.
    It will reduce crime provided that the tax revenue is used to provide welfare for the lowest strata of society. That can be accomplished in societies with relatively low corruption levels such as the European countries. As you may see, all of them are ranked above the United States in the Corruption Perception Index, http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    If it did, high taxed places like Chicago and Detroit would have very little crime.
    Both cities have been notorious for corrupt governance, that's one essential difference between these places and the highly taxed European nation where crime remains low.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    It's not questionable since I'm not giving my opinion. I'm stating the results of a Gallup poll on job satisfaction. Self-employed people report the highest overall well-being and job satisfaction of any occupational group in the U.S.
    That makes sense as the self-employed people tend to have more flexible schedules than employees and are more likely to achieve a proper work-life balance. That's why I plan on staying self-employed for as long as possible, cite these statistics, I'd like to take a look.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    The two are usually incompatible. The larger the government, the more oppressive it becomes.
    In general, that is true and it affirms Hayek's central insight in Road to Serfdom. However, countries with fairly large governments such as Sweden, Germany and Norway are ranked very highly by the Freedom House. This seems to suggest that in many cases, it is possible to prevent a large government from becoming oppressive. http://www.freedomhouse.org/
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Inflation was in the double digits when Reagan took office and wasn't reduced years after he took office. By 1983, inflation should have diminished the purchasing power of the median salary of the lowest quintile by well over 20%. At best, the 6% increase should decrease that figure to 14%, however, you've claimed that these figures are adjusted for inflation. Can you cite the source for that?




    Please expound upon the thesis that left-leaning policies diminish upward mobility. What do you mean by "anti-school" and "over-regulation"? Can you cite specific examples of this phenomenon?





    I'd like to see some of these numbers? Can you cite some basic data from that book and provide us with a link?





    Can you cite specific statistics regarding how "over-regulation" undermines entrepreneurship?





    There is clear evidence that extended prison terms deter crime, but virtually no evidence that the death penalty does. According to the authors of Freakonomics, (http://www.amazon.com/Freakonomics-R...s=Freakanomics), the death penalty is implemented so infrequently, that no reasonable criminal should be deterred by it. To corroborate that claim, one may note that states such as Texas and Louisiana that execute a very high number of inmates have a much higher violent crime rate than Maine or Massachusetts where the death penalty is not practiced. On the other hand, loose gun controls generally miscreants with the weapons needed to commit violent crimes. Although they are unable to buy them at stores, they are often able to acquire firearms at the black market. Therefore, loose gun control laws are more likely to increase the incidence of violent crime, not lower it.



    It will reduce crime provided that the tax revenue is used to provide welfare for the lowest strata of society. That can be accomplished in societies with relatively low corruption levels such as the European countries. As you may see, all of them are ranked above the United States in the Corruption Perception Index, http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/.




    Both cities have been notorious for corrupt governance, that's one essential difference between these places and the highly taxed European nation where crime remains low.





    That makes sense as the self-employed people tend to have more flexible schedules than employees and are more likely to achieve a proper work-life balance. That's why I plan on staying self-employed for as long as possible, cite these statistics, I'd like to take a look.





    In general, that is true and it affirms Hayek's central insight in Road to Serfdom. However, countries with fairly large governments such as Sweden, Germany and Norway are ranked very highly by the Freedom House. This seems to suggest that in many cases, it is possible to prevent a large government from becoming oppressive. http://www.freedomhouse.org/
    I'd like to see your numbers from the US showing that classic public schools are better than having multiple school choice options such as charters, vouchers etc...

  4. #14
    To here knows when... Odi et Amo's Avatar
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    One side of me is a raging, hopelessly idealistic leftist anarcho-syndicalist/libertarian communist who worships Spanish Civil War-era anarchist Catalonia, the other is a fairly mainstream Nordic libertarian social democrat.
    The American Dream is not what it was 30 years ago, as we continue to gut unions, and the rest of the neoliberal trickle-down theories of expanded socio-economic mobility just do not wash out.
    450px-The_Great_Gatsby_Curve.jpg
    The U.S. has approximately the same level of intergenerational mobility as Pakistan.
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  5. #15
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker
    At best, the 6% increase should decrease that figure to 14%, however, you've claimed that these figures are adjusted for inflation. Can you cite the source for that?
    I got the stat from Art Laffer's book "The End of Prosperity", but here is an online source:

    " Figure 12 shows that 86 percent of households that were in the poorest income quintile in 1980 had moved up the economic ladder to a higher income quintile by 1990."

    "Real median household income rose by $4,000 in the Reagan years--from $37,868 in 1981 to $42,049 in 1989, as shown in Figure 2."

    "The poorest 20 percent of Americans experienced a 6 percent gain in real income in the 1980s and have suffered a 3 percent loss in income in the 1990s. Figure 13, which compares the income trends for the poorest fifth of Americans over the past 20 years, shows that the poor did the best during the Reagan years. Black Americans saw their incomes grow at a slightly faster pace (11.0%) than whites (9.8%) in the Reagan years (see Table 9)."

    Supply Tax Cuts and the Truth About the Reagan Economic Record

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker
    What do you mean by "anti-school" and "over-regulation"? Can you cite specific examples of this phenomenon?
    Lefties oppose school choice or giving parents a choice to leave bad schools. I should point out that not all lefties oppose school choice since some reformers like Michelle Rhee do favor school choice. We pretty much know the trajectory of a child's life today based on his zip code. A baby born in Detroit is pretty much screwed from day one. Detroit schools are producing an adult literacy rate of only 54% and many urban schools have graduation rates below 60%. These kids futures are in danger because they got a bad education and they got a bad education because lefties won't let them go to better schools.

    When I say "over-regulation", I mean regulations such as the $1 million taxi license fee in New York to drive a cab. I mean licensing requirements for hair stylists, for tour guides in D.C., for moving vans in Tennessee, for kids running a lemonade stand, for Amish farmers trying to sell whole milk, etc. It is illegal to rent out your house or apartment to someone in some states. It was illegal to sell homemade bread in California or homemade anything in California, but that's changed. All of this red tape prevents people from succeeding and earning a living.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker
    the death penalty is implemented so infrequently, that no reasonable criminal should be deterred by it.
    That's the problem and it's another lefty created problem.

    Thanks for the discussion.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #16
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'd like to see your numbers from the US showing that classic public schools are better than having multiple school choice options such as charters, vouchers etc...
    Where did I say that the classic public schools are better than the charter schools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I got the stat from Art Laffer's book "The End of Prosperity", but here is an online source:

    " Figure 12 shows that 86 percent of households that were in the poorest income quintile in 1980 had moved up the economic ladder to a higher income quintile by 1990."

    "Real median household income rose by $4,000 in the Reagan years--from $37,868 in 1981 to $42,049 in 1989, as shown in Figure 2."

    "The poorest 20 percent of Americans experienced a 6 percent gain in real income in the 1980s and have suffered a 3 percent loss in income in the 1990s. Figure 13, which compares the income trends for the poorest fifth of Americans over the past 20 years, shows that the poor did the best during the Reagan years. Black Americans saw their incomes grow at a slightly faster pace (11.0%) than whites (9.8%) in the Reagan years (see Table 9)."

    Supply Tax Cuts and the Truth About the Reagan Economic Record
    Interesting source and I'll look into it further. Your quoted statements don't say anything about inflation-adjusted wages. Even if Reagan reduced the inflation to 3% by 1981, the $4,000 increase in income in 8 years actually diminishes the household's purchasing power. Do the math, 3% of 37,868 is 1136.04. To preserve the same purchasing power in 1989, the household must increase its income by 9088.32, which is more than double of what it was increased by.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Lefties oppose school choice or giving parents a choice to leave bad schools. I should point out that not all lefties oppose school choice since some reformers like Michelle Rhee do favor school choice. We pretty much know the trajectory of a child's life today based on his zip code. A baby born in Detroit is pretty much screwed from day one. Detroit schools are producing an adult literacy rate of only 54% and many urban schools have graduation rates below 60%. These kids futures are in danger because they got a bad education and they got a bad education because lefties won't let them go to better schools.

    When I say "over-regulation", I mean regulations such as the $1 million taxi license fee in New York to drive a cab. I mean licensing requirements for hair stylists, for tour guides in D.C., for moving vans in Tennessee, for kids running a lemonade stand, for Amish farmers trying to sell whole milk, etc. It is illegal to rent out your house or apartment to someone in some states. It was illegal to sell homemade bread in California or homemade anything in California, but that's changed. All of this red tape prevents people from succeeding and earning a living.
    I agree, all of these regulations are not necessary. However, some regulations preserve the competitive elements of the politico-economic environment by curbing the expansionary ambitions of large corporations.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    That's the problem and it's another lefty created problem.

    Thanks for the discussion.
    Are you sure about that? You wish to decrease the violent crime rate by substantially increasing our risk of executing innocent people? What happened to the maxim that it is better for 10 criminals to go free than for one innocent person to be incarcerated?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #17
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    INFJ and I think I like the Peace and Freedom party best, so far. Essentially socialist.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  8. #18
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker
    Are you sure about that? You wish to decrease the violent crime rate by substantially increasing our risk of executing innocent people? What happened to the maxim that it is better for 10 criminals to go free than for one innocent person to be incarcerated?
    Let's try it for 10 or 50 years and then study the situation to see if any innocent people are being executed.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  9. #19
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Let's try it for 10 or 50 years and then study the situation to see if any innocent people are being executed.
    The trouble is, it may not even be discovered that the executed were innocent until long after our time. It is even possible that the innocence of the alleged criminals will never be revealed. By the way, can you send me the Gallup poll results indicating that the self-employed individuals tend to be much happier than employees of organizations?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #20
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    The two are usually incompatible. The larger the government, the more oppressive it becomes. We are seeing that today with the over-regulation, the NSA snooping, and the targetting of political enemies by the IRS.
    I won't disagree with you there, though I do think that some European governments, especially northern European, have done fairly well. I have an idealistic vision, certainly. But it's what I think would be best. A government, united, that exists in the service of the people. There is some quote about government should fear its people... I believe that.

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