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  1. #1
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The Theft of Science

    As I write Australia has a respected Imam in Middle East trying to find peace.

    And he has a Doctorate (a Phd) in Islamic Science.

    Now there is no such thing as Taiwanese science, or Finnish science, or American science, or Vatican science, or Islamic Science. There is only science. And science is the same wherever it is in the world.

    So science is quite unlike religion which is different in different parts of the world.

    Science has been very successful and has enormous authority. Religion is jealous of this authority and tries to steal it.

    So we have the Protestants stealing the authority of science with Mary Baker Eddy's Christian Science.

    And we have the Catholics stealing the authority of science with their doctrine of Faith and Reason.

    And we have Muslims stealing the authority of science with doctorates in Islamic Science.

    And the New Age steals the authority of science with mbti.

  2. #2
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    MBTI is cool with me. I would say new age steals science by hijacking quantum mechanics.

    After all, QM is pretty ripe for the picking if you're a lunatic. It can explain pretty much anything you want.

    Guy 1: It's scientifically impossible for Jesus to have resurrected from the dead after 3 days.
    Guy 2: No.... quantum mechanics.

    OK look. Yes, perhaps there was a 1 in 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000 chance of it happening.

    GUESS IT'S PROVEN THEN.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    I agree with you on all of your points but the MBTI one. It doesn't really steal science because it isn't truly a science in the first place. It's closer to being a social science on the fringe of being astrology in terms of feasible utility.

    @zago, I guess it's a good thing that most Christians don't know exactly what Quantum Mechanics is.

    Plus:

    Guy 1: It's scientifically impossible for Moses to have split the Red Sea.
    Guy 2: Nope, Quantum Mechanics or some shit could prove it.
    Guy 1: Like 1 in a 1 x 10^101 chance.
    Guy 2: Still possible and provable.
    Guy 1: What's more probable, a man manages to part a gigantic body of water using a stick and no knowledge of Quantum Mechanics, keeps the sea open for just as long as it takes to get the Hebrews to the other side, and close it in time to wipe out part of the Egyptian army , or that a man lied?

  4. #4
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I agree with you on all of your points but the MBTI one. It doesn't really steal science because it isn't truly a science in the first place. It's closer to being a social science on the fringe of being astrology in terms of feasible utility.

    @zago, I guess it's a good thing that most Christians don't know exactly what Quantum Mechanics is.

    Plus:

    Guy 1: It's scientifically impossible for Moses to have split the Red Sea.
    Guy 2: Nope, Quantum Mechanics or some shit could prove it.
    Guy 1: Like 1 in a 1 x 10^101 chance.
    Guy 2: Still possible and provable.
    Guy 1: What's more probable, a man manages to part a gigantic body of water using a stick and no knowledge of Quantum Mechanics, keeps the sea open for just as long as it takes to get the Hebrews to the other side, and close it in time to wipe out part of the Egyptian army , or that a man lied?
    I prefer option 3: it's a story, just like Aesop's Fables. There didn't really have to be tortoise and a hare for us to get the point.

    As for science, as a history of science student, I saw and sometimes took courses in Soviet science, Chinese science, medieval European science, ancient Greek science, etc. so examining scientific thought and practice in the context of a particular time period or culture is not that unusual. During the middle ages, what we call the Islamic world was more advanced and active in science and medicine, and served to preserve much about classical (i.e. Greek/Roman) science that was lost or forgotten in the west. This makes it a very interesting period to study.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #5
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I prefer option 3: it's a story, just like Aesop's Fables. There didn't really have to be tortoise and a hare for us to get the point.

    As for science, as a history of science student, I saw and sometimes took courses in Soviet science, Chinese science, medieval European science, ancient Greek science, etc. so examining scientific thought and practice in the context of a particular time period or culture is not that unusual. During the middle ages, what we call the Islamic world was more advanced and active in science and medicine, and served to preserve much about classical (i.e. Greek/Roman) science that was lost or forgotten in the west. This makes it a very interesting period to study.
    And you are still trying to pick an argument with me.

    I can't put you on Ignore as you are a moderator.

    Plainly you intend to continue to abuse your position as moderator.

  6. #6
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I prefer option 3: it's a story, just like Aesop's Fables. There didn't really have to be tortoise and a hare for us to get the point.

    As for science, as a history of science student, I saw and sometimes took courses in Soviet science, Chinese science, medieval European science, ancient Greek science, etc. so examining scientific thought and practice in the context of a particular time period or culture is not that unusual. During the middle ages, what we call the Islamic world was more advanced and active in science and medicine, and served to preserve much about classical (i.e. Greek/Roman) science that was lost or forgotten in the west. This makes it a very interesting period to study.
    Remember, everything in holy scripture now proven to be objectively false was really meant as a "metaphor".

    Guess it has to be right? I mean really I could see a metaphor in literally just about anything.

    The question regarding the second half of the post is what a Phd in "Islamic Science" actually means; does it refer to the history of Islamic Science, or is this person truly supposed to be some special kind of scientist?

  7. #7
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    As I write Australia has a respected Imam in Middle East trying to find peace.

    And he has a Doctorate (a Phd) in Islamic Science.

    Now there is no such thing as Taiwanese science, or Finnish science, or American science, or Vatican science, or Islamic Science. There is only science. And science is the same wherever it is in the world.

    So science is quite unlike religion which is different in different parts of the world.

    Science has been very successful and has enormous authority. Religion is jealous of this authority and tries to steal it.

    So we have the Protestants stealing the authority of science with Mary Baker Eddy's Christian Science.

    And we have the Catholics stealing the authority of science with their doctrine of Faith and Reason.

    And we have Muslims stealing the authority of science with doctorates in Islamic Science.

    And the New Age steals the authority of science with mbti.
    You are incorrect. Science is not based on authority in the first place. It is based on empiricism.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  8. #8
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I agree with you on all of your points but the MBTI one. It doesn't really steal science because it isn't truly a science in the first place. It's closer to being a social science on the fringe of being astrology in terms of feasible utility.

    @zago, I guess it's a good thing that most Christians don't know exactly what Quantum Mechanics is.

    Plus:

    Guy 1: It's scientifically impossible for Moses to have split the Red Sea.
    Guy 2: Nope, Quantum Mechanics or some shit could prove it.
    Guy 1: Like 1 in a 1 x 10^101 chance.
    Guy 2: Still possible and provable.
    Guy 1: What's more probable, a man manages to part a gigantic body of water using a stick and no knowledge of Quantum Mechanics, keeps the sea open for just as long as it takes to get the Hebrews to the other side, and close it in time to wipe out part of the Egyptian army , or that a man lied?
    You are in fact confused. There's a reason the parting of the Red Sea was called a "miracle" and hence described as Divine Intervention.
    There are a number of different uses of the word miracle. One is the vernacular, "It'll be a *miracle* if she ever goes on a date with him" which is used to express surprise. No invocation of the divine, even though the guy probably *has* been praying for a date with her, and she has likely been praying he'll leave her alone.
    Another one is used for things which are very unlikely, but have still been documented to happen in the absence of overt claims of miracle, such as remission of cancer.
    Another one is things like the Resurrection or the Parting of the Red Sea -- "Oh, come *on* already. Everybody knows that's scientifically impossible." But if it had happened -- well, people still seem skeptical of the existing accounts, so who knows how they'd react to a current-day, contemporary counterpart.
    Or you have the David Copperfield type, making things "appear" and disappear.
    A final one is the seemingly "arbitrary" in Classical Literature such as Ovid's Metamorphoses, or in the Odyssey where Circe turns men into pigs; or fairy-tales such as Cinderella where the coach turns into a Pumpkin at midnight.
    Skeptics like to link the last two or three together as though miraculous accounts are merely entertaining stories which the gullible took too seriously, or people falling for illusions : "BILBO Baggins! Do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks!"

    ...incidentally, Guy 1 forgot (or excluded ex hypothesi) the possibility that God really did do it Himself, by means not shown. ("Any sufficiently advanced miracle is indistinguishable from technology.")
    Guy 2 is implicitly (and inconsistently) assuming that God must work only through natural means.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  9. #9
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Science has been very successful and has enormous authority. Religion is jealous of this authority and tries to steal it.
    Science has no authority apart from religion.

    The authority of science stems not merely from the ability to make observation, but from being able to predict the future based on those observations. Such predictions rely most fundamentally on an unprovable presupposition and doctrine of uniformity of nature apart from which it's impossible to predict anything. Christianity in particular can account for such a belief. The atheistic materialist cannot account for this and yet persists in their own logical inconsistency.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    You are in fact confused. There's a reason the parting of the Red Sea was called a "miracle" and hence described as Divine Intervention.
    There are a number of different uses of the word miracle. One is the vernacular, "It'll be a *miracle* if she ever goes on a date with him" which is used to express surprise. No invocation of the divine, even though the guy probably *has* been praying for a date with her, and she has likely been praying he'll leave her alone.
    Another one is used for things which are very unlikely, but have still been documented to happen in the absence of overt claims of miracle, such as remission of cancer.
    Another one is things like the Resurrection or the Parting of the Red Sea -- "Oh, come *on* already. Everybody knows that's scientifically impossible." But if it had happened -- well, people still seem skeptical of the existing accounts, so who knows how they'd react to a current-day, contemporary counterpart.
    Or you have the David Copperfield type, making things "appear" and disappear.
    A final one is the seemingly "arbitrary" in Classical Literature such as Ovid's Metamorphoses, or in the Odyssey where Circe turns men into pigs; or fairy-tales such as Cinderella where the coach turns into a Pumpkin at midnight.
    Skeptics like to link the last two or three together as though miraculous accounts are merely entertaining stories which the gullible took too seriously, or people falling for illusions : "BILBO Baggins! Do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks!"

    ...incidentally, Guy 1 forgot (or excluded ex hypothesi) the possibility that God really did do it Himself, by means not shown. ("Any sufficiently advanced miracle is indistinguishable from technology.")
    Guy 2 is implicitly (and inconsistently) assuming that God must work only through natural means.
    Thank you for your thoroughly written argument, however, in the case of the last statement, if God were to have directly intervened, it still has to compete against the probability argument. What's more probable, God directly parting the Red Sea, or a man lied?

    A counterargument to the probability argument would be one of the newer theories of the matter altogether, that the Hebrews actually did cross the Red Sea, but it was never parted, and they didn't use boats. Some people have claimed that the Hebrews actually went to the very Northern Part of the Red Sea during a year where the Red Sea's water was receded and actually crossed to the other side via a hilly route that was previously much deeper, but was now closer to the surface and would be able to walk on. The Egyptians, if they didn't know the exact route, would go forth into the water and then be surprised when they realized that they couldn't cross and dive into the water, (unless a few of them got on the route). It's entirely probable for this to happen if all of the circumstances are present.

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