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  1. #61
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    I knew I was picking up something disingenuous, hence the harshness.
    But -- there are two issues here.
    1) If one is a naturalist, all supernatural accounts are to be rejected.
    Harshly, as some will; gently, as one of the mods, who holds that socially useful metaphors and truths may be transmitted therein (recall that C.S. Lewis, before converting to Christianity, once told Tolkien that
    parts of Christianity were "lies breathed through silver"); pityingly, as some do who hold that time, oral vs. written transmission, and the same factors which mutate languages and cultures also act upon legends.
    2) If one is a supernaturalist, there is a different set of distinctions.
    Are you a Deist or somesuch, God simply watches, or (Calvin and Hobbes) torments, or (similar to The Watchmen) points and laughs?
    Or like the Greco-Roman gods, who play favorites and sleep with the hot babes (or studs) when it takes their fancy?
    Accept all accounts from all sources?
    Accept only those from your faith tradition?
    Try to pick your way through which ones seem most "reasonable" (as if?)
    And what rule does one use? A priori, reliance upon authority, New Age smorgasbord to suit oneself?
    What tipped you off that I was being deceptive? It couldn't have been anything in my signature I hope. XD

    I'm actually not aligned that much with Atheism but am more akin to Agnosticism. I will accept that God is true and accept my own punishment for being skeptical when it is proven that he might be real through objective evidence or experiencing it with my own eyes/information intake.

    Right now, in this point of life, I consider religions to be metaphors of the undeniable truth, that existence, including us, are god(s). I've been developing a subjective, entirely idiosyncratic theory on life after death through subjective reasoning that suggests something called "reintegration".

    I'm one of those people who can't accept a theory (religious or scientific) that has already been proposed simply because I believe that all attempt at disseminating what life and existence really are can only be through subjective measures, and thus am inclined to weave my own interpretation on how things work. In fact, I'm an Enneagram 8-4-5, I build subjective systems, it is literally part of my personality.

  2. #62
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    What tipped you off that I was being deceptive? It couldn't have been anything in my signature I hope. XD

    I'm actually not aligned that much with Atheism but am more akin to Agnosticism. I will accept that God is true and accept my own punishment for being skeptical when it is proven that he might be real through objective evidence or experiencing it with my own eyes/information intake.

    Right now, in this point of life, I consider religions to be metaphors of the undeniable truth, that existence, including us, are god(s). I've been developing a subjective, entirely idiosyncratic theory on life after death through subjective reasoning that suggests something called "reintegration".

    I'm one of those people who can't accept a theory (religious or scientific) that has already been proposed simply because I believe that all attempt at disseminating what life and existence really are can only be through subjective measures, and thus am inclined to weave my own interpretation on how things work. In fact, I'm an Enneagram 8-4-5, I build subjective systems, it is literally part of my personality.
    Thanks for pointing out your .sig, I don't usually miss stuff like that.
    I'll change my anti-tank rounds to (now generally considered obsolete) HESH (spallation) instead of HEAT (penetration).
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  3. #63
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    No, a psychotic episode is nothing like the average person saying a religious prayer. Or were you here playing a ruse similar to Alea_iacta_est's?

    Anyway, I believe the average religious person doesn't actually hallucinate that there is a God standing in front of them. They are still in reality, they know where they are exactly etc. They just try to believe in some invisible being, some with more success than others, some with less success and more doubts in their mind and struggling because of it. And also struggling trying to keep all the mindless rules that their religion enforces. My point is, there's many ways people do religion. My mother for example, she's got a pretty healthy attitude to it, my sister much less so as far as I can see. They are both religious yep. Just my mother doesn't cause unnecessary negative feelings to herself with it while my sister does. Well that's how I see them
    Just 'cause it is socially sanctioned and people are usually functional under religion doesn't change the fact that they are literally talking to someone who they believe is there listening but isn't, and they often claim to be spoken to by this god as well. That's a break with reality. I'm just going by definitions, here.

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    It's another to make knee-jerk rejections and call that authoritative.
    Knee jerk rejections?

    Is any of this stuff proven? No? Then what leg are you standing on?

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    You were until recently a believer of Christ the Savior, correct?
    Sort of / not really. The first thing to know is that I was very depressed, to the point of being delusional and mentally ill. This ties back with the first quote in this post. I felt like all of my waking life was a prayer - I felt that I was constantly speaking to and being spoken to, given signs by God, as many religious people do.

    Jesus said some decidedly decent things in his sermon on the Mount, for instance, but I more called myself an agnostic and felt that all religions basically worshiped the same god, which was quite misguided indeed. I only looked at the good half of Jesus, and ignored the dogmatic, wrathful one.

    Finally I snapped out of it by hitting rock bottom and having to admit that my beliefs did not coincide whatsoever with reality, and it was all one big delusion. This occurred about 8 months ago.

  4. #64
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    My penis is a metaphor for the profound truth of life.

    It is circumcised. We too are in a sense circumcised. We were circumcised from God when we became creatures of the mind, able to form concepts unlike the other monkeys and animals in the jungle. Thus we have lost our innocence as we are able to interpret past and future - just as my penis does not allow me to masturbate without lubrication, as it is circumcised.

    It, however, does not have the problem of getting smegma (they have no way to improve their lot in life), which the uncircumcised penii (the ignorant animals) do.

    Also, my penis is slightly curved to the left. In a similar sense, life is not completely straightforward. We have the capacity to lie and deceive.

    Also, life can be very hard.

    It's nice to know that my penis is such a beautiful metaphor for human existence.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Just 'cause it is socially sanctioned and people are usually functional under religion doesn't change the fact that they are literally talking to someone who they believe is there listening but isn't, and they often claim to be spoken to by this god as well. That's a break with reality. I'm just going by definitions, here.
    Well the "prophet" type might have a problem, but I was talking about the average religious person. So many of them are doing it out of tradition only. (It doesn't mean it isn't a waste of time but their decision, e.g. if they feel better this way for some reason.)

    If we declare them to be disconnected from reality, we might as well declare everyone to be disconnected from it, because I'm pretty sure everyone's had views that were actually incorrect during their life at one point (then hopefully realising later where they were wrong in thinking whatever). By "views" I don't mean religious views, just thoughts in general.

    I am not trying to "defend" religious people here, I just think this is less black and white. Even though I am definitely not religious myself


    Knee jerk rejections?

    Is any of this stuff proven? No? Then what leg are you standing on?
    Guess you summed up my previous post pretty well :P


    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Thanks for pointing out your .sig, I don't usually miss stuff like that.
    I'll change my anti-tank rounds to (now generally considered obsolete) HESH (spallation) instead of HEAT (penetration).
    Check out mine too ;P


    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    My penis is a metaphor for the profound truth of life. (...)
    Aww so good to have learnt so many details about your er, life... ;P

  6. #66
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Well the "prophet" type might have a problem, but I was talking about the average religious person. So many of them are doing it out of tradition only. (It doesn't mean it isn't a waste of time but their decision, e.g. if they feel better this way for some reason.)

    If we declare them to be disconnected from reality, we might as well declare everyone to be disconnected from it, because I'm pretty sure everyone's had views that were actually incorrect during their life at one point (then hopefully realising later where they were wrong in thinking whatever). By "views" I don't mean religious views, just thoughts in general.

    I am not trying to "defend" religious people here, I just think this is less black and white. Even though I am definitely not religious myself
    My overall intuition is that the average religious person, deep down, doesn't actually believe or is ridden with doubt. Ergo, perhaps they aren't truly psychotic.

    Nonetheless, I'm still just trying to go by definitions, which truly are all we have to go by. If someone deeply, truly believes this stuff, they are by definition psychotic. I think you get that a lot with the fundamentalist Islamic crowd. Those people were so religious/psychotic they flew planes into buildings, or strap on dynamite vests and shit. Are they not psychotic?

    It's one thing, though, to be incorrect about something. That's pretty far removed from conversing with an imaginary friend.

  7. #67
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You cannot induce the uniformity of nature without utilizing circular logic. First you must presuppose that the laws of nature are uniform then you may induce things from observation.

    But, from where does that presupposition come?
    RIGHT????? Where does all that presupposition come from? That's what I want to know. How on Earth are you questioning the presuppositions of induction of the uniformity of nature but not the presuppositions you're making believing in Christianity? LOL.

  8. #68
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Lol this is so old but I'm posting it anyway.. just 'cause I heard a Christian criticize circular logic.


  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    My overall intuition is that the average religious person, deep down, doesn't actually believe or is ridden with doubt. Ergo, perhaps they aren't truly psychotic.

    Nonetheless, I'm still just trying to go by definitions, which truly are all we have to go by. If someone deeply, truly believes this stuff, they are by definition psychotic. I think you get that a lot with the fundamentalist Islamic crowd. Those people were so religious/psychotic they flew planes into buildings, or strap on dynamite vests and shit. Are they not psychotic?
    Definitions need to be better then.

    But yea those fundamentalists were obviously crazy in a way


    It's one thing, though, to be incorrect about something. That's pretty far removed from conversing with an imaginary friend.
    Heh actually many kids do converse with imaginary friends and it's considered normal. (I wasn't one of those kids btw)

  10. #70
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Definitions need to be better then.

    But yea those fundamentalists were obviously crazy in a way
    But do they????

    Personally I think breaks with reality are.... breaks with reality. They are bad. They cause people to act in ways that coincide with their delusion and not the shared experience of everyone else. Doesn't matter if they are socially acceptable or not.

    Heh actually many kids do converse with imaginary friends and it's considered normal. (I wasn't one of those kids btw)
    Neither was I, or anyone I knew. Having a vivid imagination is part of being a kid, though. I don't think they particularly care about the reality of their thoughts until they start to have to perform in the world. I often played with my toys as if they were real, and the care of whether or not they were real people never bothered me. I guess if I had been pressured by some mean adult I would have answered that they weren't real, though.

    I dunno. Kids get a free pass on this one. What about babies? Babies can't even talk! How crazy is that?

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