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  1. #51
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Obviously by "inconvenience" I did not mean something life-threatening.

  2. #52
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    #2. But finding the line between what I'd consider a person and non-person was (is?) a process.

    And I answered it similarly to...
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    After roughly 12 weeks, the fetus' organs and body systems are fully formed, which I think should be the deadline to call the abortion a non murder. I don't have a fully formed opinion on that though. Probably never will.
    ...this.

    At some museum, I saw an exhibit that showed realistic descriptions and models of what the fetus looked like after 1 week, 2 weeks, and so on. The ~12-week exhibit gave me a clear-cut answer. I pointed to it and said -- "Yeah, my cutoff would be right here."

  3. #53
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i read an insanely disturbing story about a mother selling her babies for sex yesterday so on one hand...abortion seems much much kinder than having the horrible misfortune of having anything close to that kind of parent.

    on the other...it really pisses me off...like please go get yourself sterilized if you're a shitty human being.

    i don't think "i" personally could ever abort a child but i'm open to the possibility of it making sense in some unforeseen way....so i think that i'm happy that it's an option for people who may find themselves there.

    so what i'd prefer maybe probably is that women get an iud implanted when thy turn 13 and take it out when they decide they want children.

    but then....sometimes an unexpected child changes the lives around them in profoundly beautiful ways...so that idea is probably shit too.

    i don't know the answer.

    but i do think it's murderish and shouldn't be performed after like 8-12 weeks.
    This is pretty close to how I feel. Sucks that it has to be a thing.
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  4. #54
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    The law shows a double standard - select abortions are legal yet murdering the mom while pregnant could get you a double murder charge.
    One problem is that in the United States, a law in one state is not the same as a law in another state. Aside from Roe vs Wade decided by SCOTUS in the 70's, states vary legally not just on this matter (abortion) but in many many areas.

    Aside from the overall legality that SCOTUS declared, we assume that the state, versus the larger corporate body (AKA the country/feds), is in a better position to decide what is appropriate for that particular region. In fact, states usually bristle when the feds step on their toes.

    Which, taken to the NEXT level, why should the state be deciding the fate of a family and an entity with no actual legal standing, no legal name, no legal identification, that has a 33% chance of being miscarriaged sometimes before it's even recognized to have existed at all, etc? Shouldn't the family be considered to have even MORE jurisdiction as well as better understanding of the impact of that eventual baby upon the lives within the family? You'd think they'd respect the wishes of the parents up until the point the fetus becomes viable and can survive outside of the mother's womb, whereupon it can be legally recognized and the state can have a protective interest over its wellbeing. Until that point, the state has no real grounds to stand on.

    And in general, this is what we've seen in state law -- abortion illegal after a certain gestational period. But some states have been pushing to lower that age based on the moral values of those in power, and restrictions dumped on health-care clinics so that even if abortion is technically legal, it's difficult to acquire as a service. The issue with the brain-dead mother in Texas was hopefully just a fluke, but the mindset that made that scenario possible is still alive and well.

    As far as the question goes, I was probably a #3 growing up in my conservative Christian background. I'm more of a #2 now, but I don't like blanket positions.

    I would say that I am someone who is very respectful of life and the life process, and I also see abortion as not just impacting the zygote or the fetus but also those who choose to have it and their relationships with others and themselves. At the same time, I have great concerns prioritizing the needs of what is only a potential birth (usually months later) over the needs of born, established adults who are in a position to make decisions for their family right this moment. There are also many other factors involved, from the individual and family level even up to the cultural and economic levels, and a situation must be evaluated in a more complex way than a mere blanket statement.

    I think either decision has ramifications -- some good, some bad. Those who make the decision need to be prepared to accept the ramifications of that decision.

    My personal preference is for abortion to be available under the typical restrictions but as rare as possible, and for the cultural climate to shift to educate people and alleviate conditions that contribute to abortion being one of the solutions.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #55
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Obviously by "inconvenience" I did not mean something life-threatening.
    I don't know how you define inconvenience, but as someone who has raised kids to the age of legal adulthood, I would consider gestating and raising a child more than an inconvenience. It's a pretty big deal and a woman doing it on her own has a high likelihood of being impoverished. It impacts almost every area of your life, especially your career. In the US there is no guarantee of equal pay, no paid parental leave, no real job protections. Childcare is not affordable. And women still generally shoulder a greater portion of the responsibility for their care. Child support, while often a hardship for the non-custodial parent, is almost never enough to realistically cover half of a child's expenses and is not infrequently difficult to collect.

    Adoption is not a viable option for some women. In my case, for instance, if I had an unplanned pregnancy, the stigma of giving a child up for adoption would be crippling because I'm a married woman who already has children. I have two kids with disabilities with suspected genetic links and I'm old enough to have a decent chance of having a child with abnormalities. I know I don't want anymore children. I don't think I'm in a physical condition to properly raise more children. We can't afford more children. I've been sterilized to prevent conceiving more children. I have requested that my husband be sterilized just to be on the safe side but he does not believe it is necessary. The odds are, indeed, very low, but I have met people who have kids that were conceived after sterilization.

    I don't believe I would have an abortion unless my fetus had abnormalities incompatible with life or my life/longterm health were in danger, but that the option to have one would be taken from me on the assumption that I was attempting to avoid a minor inconvenience is kind of insulting and infuriating.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #56
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post

    I don't believe I would have an abortion unless my fetus had abnormalities incompatible with life or my life/longterm health were in danger, but that the option to have one would be taken from me on the assumption that I was attempting to avoid a minor inconvenience is kind of insulting and infuriating.
    Or maybe you dont understand why I said what I said and you've personalized it.

  7. #57
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    #2. But finding the line between what I'd consider a person and non-person was (is?) a process.

    And I answered it similarly to...

    ...this.

    At some museum, I saw an exhibit that showed realistic descriptions and models of what the fetus looked like after 1 week, 2 weeks, and so on. The ~12-week exhibit gave me a clear-cut answer. I pointed to it and said -- "Yeah, my cutoff would be right here."
    yeah, it's hard to know what 12 weeks looks like and say it's not murder...or...even quite a bit before that.

    and not only did i read about th horrible mom yesterday but last night watched some tv show where the lady drowned her baby in the bathtub. and the other day read about some teenager who strangled her baby right after delivering it herself in the bathroom....ughh

    and today i go to my newborn shoot and snuggle this lil 1 day old baby and it's just so sweet and completely helpless and i just don't get how anyone could not be compelled to do everything in their power to protect him from anything bad in this world...

    i just can't fathom it...and even if that baby wasn't wanted or planned...he still matters and someone/everyone better damn well care about that....that this lil life matters.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Or maybe you dont understand why I said what I said and you've personalized it.
    When it's something that could realistically happen to you it feels pretty personal.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #59
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Obviously by "inconvenience" I did not mean something life-threatening.
    But pregnancy and delivery themselves can be life-threatening.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so


  10. #60
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    None of these options.

    The question as to whether a fetus has right to live and whether a woman has the right to choose are actually two different questions. I think the needs of a woman killing her own baby because its an inconvenience to her is less important than the life of a fetus, but I guess its not easy to draw the line as to when a fetus has its own sentience.




    We are all animals. We humans are very selfish creatures. We kill that which is different(or looks that way) and protect that which looks like we do.



    Not true. After three months a fetus has a CNS, incuding a brain stem.





    No offense but you dont much about science it seems, as these arguements make no sense. A fetus is not a parasite, you do not seem to know the meaning of the word 'parasite'.
    Indeed we are all animals, but we exhibit conscious thought, so the divide is between us and them is simply a little bonus feature in our brain.

    Did you notice the word sometimes in that sentence, or did you skip completely over it?

    Obviously a fetus isn't a parasite, I was comparing it to a parasite via a biological metaphor. Parasites steal nutrients from their host, babies also absorb nutrients from their host, Parasites can induce sickness on their host, as does a pregnancy in some cases. The fetus doesn't aid its mother in any way during its development.

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