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  1. #41
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    It's a pretty good indication,
    No, it's not. You're using inductive reasoning which is logically faulty.

    and your straining exception of a college student abroad proves my point.
    It's not straining. It demonstrates your faulty logic.

    Anyway, it doesn't matter whether we counted them in a census or not as your just making an appeal to authority which doesn't make any sense. The census bureau was created to sort out what constitutes personhood and even if it did it's conclusion would not mean anything unless they were based on unquestionable fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    What does that have to do with anything?
    I'm pointing out that rather than the helplessness of the baby being a justification for its killing the helplessness actually creates a duty on the mother to care for the child since she is responsible for it coming into being and relying on her.

    Btw, do you see how you contradicted yourself?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    An abortion kills a human life. That is a scientific fact.
    What is up for debate is whether a fetus (and indeed every live human) is a person which would determine whether the killing would be murder or not
    An abortion stops a life from beginning, which is entirely different from killing a human life. The fetus is unconscious and has no experience in the outside world and it is about as conscious and alive in the world as a tree is. Killing has the connotation of stopping a life from continuing.

  3. #43
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    None of the above. I'm pro-choice in the first trimester and pro-life in the third trimester. A fertilized egg is not a human being or a baby, but an 8 month old fetus is definitely a baby. At some point, the clump of undifferentiated cells becomes a human being and that's when it deserves to be protected.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #44
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    An abortion stops a life from beginning, which is entirely different from killing a human life. The fetus is unconscious and has no experience in the outside world and it is about as conscious and alive in the world as a tree is. Killing has the connotation of stopping a life from continuing.
    You're conflating the biological with the moral/metaphysical in a way that's confusing.

    I'm pretty certain that from a biological perspective abortion absolutely is "stopping a life from continuing." An unborn child is a growing organism.

    You have to come to grips with the biological reality that abortion is killing a human life. You can say that these particular human lives have no value and are not persons and thus abortion is justified, but then you're just picking and choosing what human's deserve to be protected by basic human rights and which don't.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You're conflating the biological with the moral/metaphysical in a way that's confusing.

    I'm pretty certain that from a biological perspective abortion absolutely is "stopping a life from continuing." An unborn child is a growing organism.

    You have to come to grips with the biological reality that abortion is killing a human life. You can say that these particular human lives have no value and are not persons and thus abortion is justified, but then you're just picking and choosing what human's deserve to be protected by basic human rights and which don't.
    (Incoming fucked up world-view)

    It's easy to pick and choose which humans get rights, the ones that are awake. Without consciousness and experience with consciousness in the past, they are simply animals, and we have killed animals in the past have we not? In fact, these animals sometimes don't even have a central nervous system developed yet, so it would be like plucking a blade of grass from the ground and severing its connection with the soil from which it feeds off of.

    I'm using the terminology of life in the sense of experience rather than the biological definition of a living organism. Biologically, we kill parasites with "medicine" everyday and what else does a fetus do but feed upon its host until it is eventually purged from the system? I think we should start a petition to let parasites live in the human body and not be threatened with death.

  6. #46
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    None of these options.

    The question as to whether a fetus has right to live and whether a woman has the right to choose are actually two different questions. I think the needs of a woman killing her own baby because its an inconvenience to her is less important than the life of a fetus, but I guess its not easy to draw the line as to when a fetus has its own sentience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    (Incoming fucked up world-view)

    It's easy to pick and choose which humans get rights, the ones that are awake. Without consciousness and experience with consciousness in the past, they are simply animals, and we have killed animals in the past have we not?

    We are all animals. We humans are very selfish creatures. We kill that which is different(or looks that way) and protect that which looks like we do.

    In fact, these animals sometimes don't even have a central nervous system developed yet, so it would be like plucking a blade of grass from the ground and severing its connection with the soil from which it feeds off of.
    Not true. After three months a fetus has a CNS, incuding a brain stem.

    I'm using the terminology of life in the sense of experience rather than the biological definition of a living organism. Biologically, we kill parasites with "medicine" everyday and what else does a fetus do but feed upon its host until it is eventually purged from the system? I think we should start a petition to let parasites live in the human body and not be threatened with death.


    No offense but you dont much about science it seems, as these arguements make no sense. A fetus is not a parasite, you do not seem to know the meaning of the word 'parasite'.

  7. #47
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    abortion is murder, but if the child's life is going to be miserable, ie have to be given up for adoption, no one around is capable of taking care of the child it should be aborted. it's like if a thousand people are going to die at the hand of one person/a few people they should be executed to save the rest.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #48
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i read an insanely disturbing story about a mother selling her babies for sex yesterday so on one hand...abortion seems much much kinder than having the horrible misfortune of having anything close to that kind of parent.

    on the other...it really pisses me off...like please go get yourself sterilized if you're a shitty human being.

    i don't think "i" personally could ever abort a child but i'm open to the possibility of it making sense in some unforeseen way....so i think that i'm happy that it's an option for people who may find themselves there.

    so what i'd prefer maybe probably is that women get an iud implanted when thy turn 13 and take it out when they decide they want children.

    but then....sometimes an unexpected child changes the lives around them in profoundly beautiful ways...so that idea is probably shit too.

    i don't know the answer.

    but i do think it's murderish and shouldn't be performed after like 8-12 weeks.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #49
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i read an insanely disturbing story about a mother selling her babies for sex yesterday so on one hand...abortion seems much much kinder than having the horrible misfortune of having anything close to that kind of parent.

    on the other...it really pisses me off...like please go get yourself sterilized if you're a shitty human being.

    i don't think "i" personally could ever abort a child but i'm open to the possibility of it making sense in some unforeseen way....so i think that i'm happy that it's an option for people who may find themselves there.

    so what i'd prefer maybe probably is that women get an iud implanted when thy turn 13 and take it out when they decide they want children.

    but then....sometimes an unexpected child changes the lives around them in profoundly beautiful ways...so that idea is probably shit too.

    i don't know the answer.

    but i do think it's murderish and shouldn't be performed after like 8-12 weeks.
    I agree with this.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #50
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I think the needs of a woman killing her own baby because its an inconvenience to her is less important than the life of a fetus
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death
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