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  1. #31
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    An abortion kills a human life. That is a scientific fact.
    What is up for debate is whether a fetus (and indeed every live human) is a person which would determine whether the killing would be murder or not
    If abortion kills a life, then why wouldn't that be murder? Why aren't fetuses counted on the US census?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I fall in to camp #1 for reasons similar to what others have described.

    Once we have the technology the build fully-functional artificial wombs, abortion should be a non-issue. However, some of those in camp #2 would probably still argue for the right, and I would be against them at that point.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #33
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    If abortion kills a life, then why wouldn't that be murder? Why aren't fetuses counted on the US census?
    Not all killings of adults are murders, either. Some people are killed in war. Unintentional killings are called "manslaughter" in the US. I don't think abortion would qualify as manslaughter, though, because the killing would definitely be intentional. I don't think it's murder, either. Maybe voluntary manslaughter would be a better description, but that term never really made sense to me. It seems self-contradictory.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #34
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    If abortion kills a life, then why wouldn't that be murder? Why aren't fetuses counted on the US census?
    I just explained it to you. What part don't you understand?
    If it seems strange to separate human life from personhood, then I agree, it is strange.

  5. #35
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Not all killings of adults are murders, either. Some people are killed in war. Unintentional killings are called "manslaughter" in the US. I don't think abortion would qualify as manslaughter, though, because the killing would definitely be intentional. I don't think it's murder, either. Maybe voluntary manslaughter would be a better description, but that term never really made sense to me. It seems self-contradictory.
    Abortion, unlike most vehicular misadventures, is normally performed with the intent to kill, or at least with the aim of precluding the development of life. I would also argue wars can involve outright murder, semi-justified killing and collateral damage.

  6. #36
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I just explained it to you. What part don't you understand?
    If it seems strange to separate human life from personhood, then I agree, it is strange.
    My own analysis: Murder - unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by another. If the fetus isn't a human being and counted on the census, then murder can't apply. The issue of separating life and personhood is troubling, bordering absurd. I would deem a fetus the potential for life in that it may not be autonomous if ripped out of the womb and expected to independently survive.

  7. #37
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    My own analysis: Murder - unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by another. If the fetus isn't a human being and counted on the census, then murder can't apply.
    Whether or not an unborn child is included in a census is not determinative of its personhood. There are other factors involved in who is included. An american college student who studies abroad wouldn't be included either, but that doesn't make her any less a person.

    The issue of separating life and personhood is troubling, bordering absurd. I would deem a fetus the potential for life in that it may not be autonomous if ripped out of the womb and expected to independently survive.
    You're contradicting yourself. You're not basing personhood on just life, but rather placing a requirement on personhood beyond life.

    The autonomy argument doesn't work, except perhaps in rape situations, as we as a society actually place a HIGHER duty of care on anyone who takes on the responsibility of caring for another life whether it's parents, a doctor, or a life guard. Not only can they not kill a person like everyone else, but they have a duty to try to save the life of someone in their care or face some sort of homicide/manslaughter charges.

  8. #38
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Whether or not an unborn child is included in a census is not determinative of its personhood.
    It's a pretty good indication, and your straining exception of a college student abroad proves my point.

  9. #39
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Not only can they not kill a person like everyone else, but they have a duty to try to save the life of someone in their care or face some sort of homicide/manslaughter charges.
    What does that have to do with anything?

  10. #40
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    I changed my mind about abortion when I found there are more spontaneous abortions than induced abortions.

    Then it became plain that spontaneous abortion was a natural process.

    And as we look around the plant and animal kingdoms we find that nature is profligate with life.

    Nature produces far more life than it can possibly support, so most life is aborted.

    Of course homo sapiens only produces one or two offspring over a period of nine months. The offspring is helpless for many years, and needs to be supported for more years. So nature has a way of looking after these helpless homo sapiens offspring, and that is pair bonding.

    So for homo sapiens, and similar species, our offspring are highly valued. And so naturally we are uncomfortable with induced abortion. And even spontaneous abortions cause us to grieve.

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