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  1. #21
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    It shouldn't be two murders if the law doesn't consider the fetus a person, which it provisionally doesn't because certain abortions are legal.
    The premise of conduct among the parties in question is varied. The law does not work blindly to this fact.

  2. #22
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    Please select one and explain. A breakdown I constructed follows.

    1) Abortion is murder, yet I'm pro-choice

    2) Abortion isn't murder (only a fetus, etc.), and I'm pro-choice

    3) Abortion is murder, and I'm pro-life

    4) Abortion isn't murder (potential for life, etc.) , and I'm pro-life

    Two might be the liberal stance whereas three might be the traditional christian position on abortion. Thoughts?

    I'm curious to see if anyone selects options one or four and why.
    Disclaimer: my definition of murder is the premeditated elimination of a living thing.

    My choice is #1

    I above all believe we should be free.

    And I myself don't like to waste life if I don't have to. I include plants as living as well.

    The formation of any cells is still part of the life process. I personally don't like to interfere with that process...

    I cannot and do not want to control what others do with their relationship with life. That is not my place. They have a gift of free will. If that means that they use it shittily..then so be it. We don't know all the answers..so who am I to judge. I know what is right for me.....not all people everywhere though.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
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  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    This. Plus, mostly only poor women will bear the brunt of making abortion illegal. We have a pretty good idea why women have abortions. We can address these issues and reduce it by quite a lot. Making it illegal will not save the lives of unborn children as much as it will damage the lives and bodies of poor women.
    I agree with this reasoning, and hold perspective (2). Everyone is pro-life; the difference lies in just whose lives we are "pro". Who are we willing to see die a preventable death? See quotes below:
    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    I never understood how the same pro-life republicans could be pro-death when it comes to youngsters and war.
    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    Being pro-war and anti-abortion is inconsistent and incompatible with unequivocally supporting life, as pro-life republicans claim to do.
    Yes, because innocents always die in wartime. If you can justify that when the war is for a "good cause", same for an abortion. The same republicans also oppose most attempts to help poor women and families care for unplanned children; to make effective birth control readily available so unplanned preganancies don't happen; and even to show girls that there is far more to life ahead of them than being a mother.

    As the saying goes, abortion should remain safe, legal, and rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    It shouldn't be two murders if the law doesn't consider the fetus a person, which it provisionally doesn't because certain abortions are legal.
    Yes, it shouldn't count as two murders. But politicians are unwilling to write the laws this way for fear of offending voters who oppose all abortions. (I will not call them "pro-life" because that is not usually the focus of their efforts, and they have used that term to twist the debate for far too long.)

    Consider also that by allowing government to start making reproductive decisions for us, we open the door to both sides of the issue. If the government can force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will, they can insist, as they do in China, that she terminate it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    2.
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  5. #25
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Not many are willing to really understand the grey areas in the whole birth process. Actually physically being separated from the mother is a dramatic moment, but only one in many steps in the development of a person. Like most things in life, there is not magical transformational moment outside of legal and culturally defined delineations.

    I am pro-choice. And I don't think abortion is murder, but I do see that it is killing.

  6. #26
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I'm pro-choice, but I believe the gravity of the act increases exponentially as time passes. It should be done asap.

    After roughly 12 weeks, the fetus' organs and body systems are fully formed, which I think should be the deadline to call the abortion a non murder. I don't have a fully formed opinion on that though. Probably never will.

  7. #27
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    #2 for me.
    I don't consider the extraction of a fetus at early stages of development killing. To have been killed, one must have lived. To live, one must have been born- or, at the very least- be a viable fetus. That is, one that is capable of existing outside the mother at the time. I believe on avg that's about 23 weeks in the gestational period. Even then, I personally am okay with abortion- & I suppose one could, at that point, consider it killing. That too, is okay with me, cold as that may sound. As long as it is the mother's decision.
    Honestly though, I'm not sure how someone could go that long not knowing they were pregnant, so there seem to be few valid reasons to wait that length of time to have the procedure done. Late abortion is a lot more invasive for the mother, probably more costly, & certainly would drum up a lot more needless protest from those outside the situation, & who wants all that noise?


    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    How are abortions legal when murder isn't legal and murdering a pregnant woman could earn you two counts?
    In the U.S. it's not federally illegal to have an abortion- however- several states do have their own legal restrictions on the books (how's that for cohesion). So, perhaps "consistency" depends on where you are, or how you see the situation. As far as homicide goes, I think 2 counts of murder makes sense... for the most part. At least, for the moment.

    If the victim happened to be pregnant at the time, it's possible she chose to be, therefore continuing to foster the potential for life. Financially & emotionally investing in this life-to-be. It's a bit muddy, there, I guess, since I don't see a non-viable fetus as a living being. Perhaps there should be a different type of criminal charge specifically for the malicious/reckless destruction of a non-viable fetus. After all, if someone beat a woman half to death, & she miscarried- there certainly should be some acknowledgement of what's transpired. And consequences. Not just an assault/battery charge. What happened was more than assault & battery. The mother (or surviving family) suffers a grievous loss that should not have happened. It is legally the mother's right to choose (imo that right should remain solely in her hands) to go forward with a pregnancy or an abortion- it is not the right of anyone else to take that decision away. Beating a woman until she miscarries, or killing her while she is pregnant directly violates that right, doesn't it? Violation of that right should have a name, & a consequence, though I'm not certain if "murder" would always be the most apt term, for the more fastidious folk... hm.

    If the fetus were viable at the time of the homicide, then I see absolutely no inconsistencies whatsoever with a charge of 2 counts of murder. The fetus could theoretically have survived outside the womb at the moment of its destruction.

    I feel as though morals/ethics are not quite as tightly knit within the fabric of law as they may often appear.
    Anyway, regulations on this crap will always be in flux in the U.S., so I wouldn't expect too much from our creepy old Uncle Sam when it comes to matters of consistency.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I am pro-death: 2.

  9. #29
    Senior Member entpersonal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    And I don't think abortion is murder, but I do see that it is killing.
    What?

  10. #30
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entpersonal View Post
    What?
    An abortion kills a human life. That is a scientific fact.
    What is up for debate is whether a fetus (and indeed every live human) is a person which would determine whether the killing would be murder or not

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