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  1. #41
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Yet in an indirect way, the police stations provide the less privileged with opportunities to achieve upward mobility in a similar sense to how social welfare programs should.
    Oh yeah! Just like the county snow plow!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #42
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Socialism is bad. I am totally suffering actually. If I was to loose my job tomorrow, I'll be paid for a year my old wager till I find a new one. And after a year the rent of my apartment will be paid and I get some money for food. I feel like a slave. Someone has to invade my country and break me free rom this socialist oppression !

  3. #43
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Yet in an indirect way, the police stations provide the less privileged with opportunities to achieve upward mobility in a similar sense to how social welfare programs should.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #44
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    A socialist snowplow ?

    wow.

    Sometimes there ain't enough words for superiority

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    First, I want to say that I am not against Socialism because it limits socio-economic freedom, thus detracting from personal empowerment and rendering it to "Caesar" - it does, but that's not the main point.

    Socialism is a political-economic system that is ambivalent or even indifferent toward human value systems. It is not immoral, as with communism and fascism, it is simply amoral. It creates a moral vacuum in society which is waiting to be filled with something else. And what that 'something else' is will depend on whatever extremist causes are lurking in the political background.

    The present values vacuum will be filled by Islam.

    While various special interest groups vie to fill the values vacuum in the US created by media networks and their political pawns in Washington D.C., these are not faith-based groups. LGBT, for example, is not faith-based. Animal rights activist groups and tree-hugging groups are not faith-based. They are emotion-based. And their emotions are not strong enough to lead them to those suicidal acts of rebellion which cause much havoc and grief around the world. The activities of these groups rend societies along political lines, but not really along social lines, because those lines were already drawn centuries ago via the Judeo-Christian ethos.

    I'll finish this later. Things are getting nuts around here anyway.
    This is Social Liberalism you're thinking of, not Economic Liberalism. On the 2D Nolan scale, Liberals (as well as Socialists) and Libertarians share

    Social Liberalism, while Liberals and Authoritarians share Economic Liberalism.

    Social Liberalism is "do what thou wilt." It has nothing to do with Socialism, although many Libertarian Socialists advocate for it.

    Economic Liberalism is "control corporations." This is the basis of Socialism.



    The basis for Capitalism is that corporations should be free in theory, while Socialism argues that corporations will control individuals in practice.

  6. #46
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Let's have laborers own the means of production. How does that sound?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #47
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    The ironic thing is that Marx himself proposed an even more Libertarian style of transit to Socialism than modern Socialists. He theorized that if conditions became too unfavorable, the workers would organize themselves and revolt against their corporations and the change would occur socially.

    What happened was industries began hiring young children to do their labor. Being more impressionable, the children would be mentally scarred or even brainwashed by growing up and working in such conditions and would not think to stand up for themselves and revolt. During the Progressive Era the government needed to respond by mandating child labor laws.

    Adult workers would often revolt as well, but this involved entire towns being ransacked and destroyed and government police were sent to quell the riots. In such cases, the government, which was controlled by the monopolies, put the companies back in power and the workers continued to suffer.

    The modern US mixed economy suffers the problems associated with both Socialism and Capitalism. The wealthy still control the workers and the means of production, yet the income levels that feed most of the US national economy are taxed the most (apart from the wealthy, who simply bank overseas to avoid these taxes.) Though corporations still hold all the cards over their workers, the harder workers have less incentive to work because their earnings are taken away for redistribution. In other words, the incredibly wealthy stay wealthy, yet those who willingly do the most work get less reward because they are mandated to redistribute their earned wealth.

    I wonder what would happen if the wealth wasn't redistributed but workers did control the means of production? Like the opposite of what we have now?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Let's have laborers own the means of production. How does that sound?
    Communism.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #49
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Communism.
    Well, actually, that's just socialist. That does not have the sufficient qualifications to be full fledged communism. Socialism in Marx's mind was supposed to be a mere stopping point between the two. The state of society after the proletariat revolution was not yet communism, allegedly. Communism in theory would be a society where a distinction like that would not even make sense. So, to clarify, workers owning the means of production is just socialism, and I figure that to be the world's oldest definition (and probably still the most specific and operational definition).

    At any rate, merely saying communism does not actually explain whether or not anything is wrong with the idea.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, actually, that's just socialist. That does not have the sufficient qualifications to be full fledged communism. Socialism in Marx's mind was supposed to be a mere stopping point between the two. The state of society after the proletariat revolution was not yet communism, allegedly. Communism in theory would be a society where a distinction like that would not even make sense. So, to clarify, workers owning the means of production is just socialism, and I figure that to be the world's oldest definition (and probably still the most specific and operational definition).

    At any rate, merely saying communism does not actually explain whether or not anything is wrong with the idea.
    Simple. It doesn't work in practice. It doesn't work in theory either, but socialists and communists aren't willing to critique their own belief systems. May as well ask a Randroid to self-critique.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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