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  1. #71
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not being approached isn't a rejection. There is no act of "turning down" there.

    Sure you can get rejected once you've started seeing someone, but that goes for all of us.
    It's not the same flavour of rejection, but it is still rejection. As long as social norms state that men are the approachers and women are approached (with an assumption by many that women who "have to" approach are less desirable), not being approached is equivalent to being rejected by either everyone in general, or specifically by that one guy you were flirting with (or whatever). You could compare it to the social norm for parents to show affection to their kids - if your parents never hugged you or said anything nice to you, they are rejecting you, even if they aren't actively turning down your approaches. Or online dating - when you initiate messages and don't get a reply, or don't get messages sent to you, you aren't being actively turned down, but it's still rejection. Imperfect analogies, but you get the idea.

    I would like these social norms to change (and they are changing slowly) but that's how things are now. Another drawback of these norms is that a lot of men tend to approach women nearly indiscriminately and then reject them very quickly afterwards. So yes, all humans care about how they're perceived by the gender they wish to date (and by everyone else too, really).
    -end of thread-

  2. #72
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not being approached isn't a rejection. There is no act of "turning down" there.
    I was waiting for you to say this. Yes, it is rejection, just like with merchandise on the store shelf. I reject the ones I don't want, in favor of the one I want, or at least the one I prefer. And the passivity of it on the woman's end makes it even harder. Sure, she can try to look pretty and approachable, but she can't actually work an interaction unless she decides to take on the approach herself. Fortunately more women are doing this, making interactions more flexible.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #73
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    If you are unhappy with the current situation, walk a mile in our shoes and do the approaching.

    We don't have the option of waiting for love to come to us. Our plight is to either act or fail.

  4. #74
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I dunno. I've found my most successful relationships/ interactions with high potential mates to be a dance re: approaching.

    It was that perfect storm of noticing each other, taking the time to take the other in, appreciating the other and just growing closer. I tend to be the initiator due to my curiosity about people, and they did the following up, causing us to cross paths again. Things just...happened from there.

    When I didn't do the initiating but was chased from the get-go, I felt pressured and unable to actually separate my own wants and feelings from his - which was detrimental to the relationship if one did occur. Similarly, if they didn't do the follow up, I took it as a 'not interested' and went my way
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  5. #75
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I dunno. I've found my most successful relationships/ interactions with high potential mates to be a dance re: approaching.
    Yeah. You can start with a "hi" and see if the other person says "hi" and then you can see how smoothly the tango goes from there. If you're stepping all over the other's feet, or if the other's frame is too rigid for your taste, or you don't even make it out onto the dance floor, you've probably found your limitation.

    Or even just start with eye contact. That's about as low-effort an approach can get.

  7. #77
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If you are unhappy with the current situation, walk a mile in our shoes and do the approaching.

    We don't have the option of waiting for love to come to us. Our plight is to either act or fail.
    You do have the option, since more women are taking your advice and approaching men who interest them. Both men and women are right to complain about the boxes "traditional" dating puts them into, and to step out ot the boxes so the pros and cons of each side can be shared more evenly. Just think: as more women do the approaching, and more men get approached and have a chance to refuse, each might come to understand the traditional perspective of the other better.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #78
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    I tell everyone my feelings cuz I'm a mushy bitch

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    No discussion necessary just have a look.

    Here's the article:

    Men Without Women: Is There A Male Friendship Crisis?

    Male friendship is formed around jokes, favors, and associations -- all things under attack.
    Regarding the article in the OP (I didn't read the rest of the thread):

    I didn't like the article. The author was basically pissing and moaning about a Salon article pushing the latest feminist fad theory on why men are losers. Most of his rebuttal is anecdotal. His strongest points are reserved for the end, where he goes on the counter-attack and complains that male behavior is being pathologized with ADD diagnoses and drugged out of existence. Basically his point is that the Salon article is just more armchair pathologizing of male behavior. He should have started his article with that paragraph and written a more substantive (and less snarky) article.

    A better rebuttal is "Camille Paglia: A Feminist Defense of Masculine Virtues" from The Wall Street Journal. Camille Paglia is a lesbian, an old-style feminist (she fought in the 1960s and 70s for women's rights, abortion on demand, and the sexual revolution), and has an 11-year-old son. She's part of the older "libertarian" wing of feminism, and she is critical of the political correctness of modern feminism.

    An excerpt:

    [...] Ms. Paglia argues that the softening of modern American society begins as early as kindergarten. "Primary-school education is a crock, basically. It's oppressive to anyone with physical energy, especially guys," she says, pointing to the most obvious example: the way many schools have cut recess. "They're making a toxic environment for boys. Primary education does everything in its power to turn boys into neuters."

    She is not the first to make this argument, as Ms. Paglia readily notes. Fellow feminist Christina Hoff Sommers has written about the "war against boys" for more than a decade. The notion was once met with derision, but now data back it up: Almost one in five high-school-age boys has been diagnosed with ADHD, boys get worse grades than girls and are less likely to go to college.

    Ms. Paglia observes this phenomenon up close with her 11-year-old son, Lucien, whom she is raising with her ex-partner, Alison Maddex, an artist and public-school teacher who lives 2 miles away. She sees the tacit elevation of "female values"—such as sensitivity, socialization and cooperation—as the main aim of teachers, rather than fostering creative energy and teaching hard geographical and historical facts.

    By her lights, things only get worse in higher education. "This PC gender politics thing—the way gender is being taught in the universities—in a very anti-male way, it's all about neutralization of maleness." The result: Upper-middle-class men who are "intimidated" and "can't say anything. . . . They understand the agenda." In other words: They avoid goring certain sacred cows by "never telling the truth to women" about sex, and by keeping "raunchy" thoughts and sexual fantasies to themselves and their laptops.

    Politically correct, inadequate education, along with the decline of America's brawny industrial base, leaves many men with "no models of manhood," she says. "Masculinity is just becoming something that is imitated from the movies. There's nothing left. There's no room for anything manly right now." The only place you can hear what men really feel these days, she claims, is on sports radio. No surprise, she is an avid listener. The energy and enthusiasm "inspires me as a writer," she says, adding: "If we had to go to war," the callers "are the men that would save the nation."[...]
    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...40022857012920
    Also, here's a first-person excerpt from a public address by Camille Paglia at a debate:

    [...] "A peevish, grudging rancor against men has been one of the most unpalatable and unjust features of second- and third-wave feminism. Men’s faults, failings and foibles have been seized on and magnified into gruesome bills of indictment. Ideologue professors at our leading universities indoctrinate impressionable undergraduates with carelessly fact-free theories alleging that gender is an arbitrary, oppressive fiction with no basis in biology.

    "Is it any wonder that so many high-achieving young women, despite all the happy talk about their academic success, find themselves in the early stages of their careers in chronic uncertainty or anxiety about their prospects for an emotionally fulfilled private life? When an educated culture routinely denigrates masculinity and manhood, then women will be perpetually stuck with boys, who have no incentive to mature or to honor their commitments. And without strong men as models to either embrace or (for dissident lesbians) to resist, women will never attain a centered and profound sense of themselves as women." [...]
    http://ideas.time.com/2013/12/16/its...#ixzz2qAcKr5CL

  10. #80
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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