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  1. #41
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @DiscoBiscuit, meh, you caught me before the edit.

    I assume you were referring to me in the last line. Ironically, I was, at the time you were writing and posting that, affirming that I do not at all feel like you are stupid for holding those positions.

    But you respond to me like I have done something wrong. Again. Because I am a woman responding where women were not explicitly addressed.

    Women are not to speak until spoken to?

    The majority of female responses to the article in the OP have not been positive. Why be more generous towards their arguments than they are towards mine?
    Because the article is pejorative towards women and it's gracious of them to have expended any effort on it whatsoever.

    But more seriously, because maybe they had good ideas worth discussing.

    Maybe they didn't.

    But the tone seems to be that they didn't have good ideas worth discussing because they were women.

    It's cyclical...

  2. #42
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    This thread, the way it has been set up and responded to, is an incredibly demonstrative example of why women feel compelled to push sometimes... because our environment is sometimes ambivalently hostile towards us.
    As is our environment. The OP article makes a serious case for the need of male space. I was trying to foster such a space with the thread in the hopes that (absent female input) we may get some more candid responses than we otherwise might.

    When I clicked on this thread, this is what I observed: You only invited men in your title, but you didn't acknowledge women at all.
    That was the point. See above.

    or you could have explained why you were interested in male-only input. The best would have been to do both.
    Why waste the effort in creating another thread? I would still be dealing with the same amount of crap.

    the central point is that you chose to not address women at all
    Which was the point.

    At least personally I spent a good deal of time and thought on my post, and while it may not have been what you were looking for and I did not expect any response,
    Your post was indeed civil, and one of the reasons I said the majority of female responses (and not all female responses) have been negative.

    Sorry if it seemed as if I was painting with a broader brush than needed.

    I also did not expect for my response to be devalued because of my gender.
    The value of your gender doesn't have anything to do with it.

    I was trying to elicit the most candid male responses I could on the implicit assumption that the fewer female responses to the thread, the more candid the male input is liable to be.

    Even removing gender, we can observe that you just introduced a discussion thread onto a forum that was implictly only for a few people where only those few people are acknowledged and affirmed for their response while the others who were not addressed - despite it being a forum open to all sorts of people who regularly reply - are chastised and blamed for the lack of a good thread.
    See above.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Because the article is pejorative towards women and it's gracious of them to have expended any effort on it whatsoever.
    Come now. It's no more pejorative than all those "End of Men" articles we see floating around.

    But more seriously, because maybe they had good ideas worth discussing.
    The point was to create an environment to elicit the most candid male responses I could.

  5. #45
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    All the time they spend on those long-winded posts and you are rewarding every word with attention. This gives the-ones-that-nag the validation they crave. This is incentive for them to intrude further.

  6. #46
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    The article seems a little too overgeneralized to me. The Rihanna part I just found ridiculous and laughed. I always thought it was interesting though how high suicide rates in teen boys were compared to teen girls, but teen girls were statistically more likely to admit they attempted suicide than boys. Just goes to show that we as a society should be striving for healthier forms of communication all around and bridging interpersonal gaps between different people.

    I don't really see how the presence of someone of the opposite sex/sex you are attracted to can have such a negative impact on your relationships. I dunno if it's just me, but the "friend groups" I've been in have been mostly balanced gender-wise (all straight except for me, although there was one guy in one of my friend groups who was bi and three bi girls in another friend group) and we have generally healthy communication with each other and good bonds together as friends. We bond over doing things and cracking jokes, sometimes doing favors I guess. It never really seemed like one specific gender had problems bonding with anyone in the group in the presence of the opposite sex. Just recently I talked with my ISFJ ex who is a part of our friend group about our relationship (as friends, not exes) one-on-one. TBH I think any kind of bonding is best done one-on-one anyway since it's the most personal.

    Story time: when I was in high school, there was this one guy who was in the hospital for a while after trying to kill himself. He was gay, but all of his friends were stereotypical cishet males and he was afraid of coming out to them because he thought their response would be negative. So he felt so torn up about it that he tried to end his life. But in the end all of his friends turned out to be okay with it. Happy ending! But point is even though he was hanging out with all these people of the same sex and the same outlook on life without the presence of someone different, he still didn't have a healthy level enough communication between them or a solid foundation in their friendship to the point where he couldn't tell them. Yeah, coming out is a huge thing and that probably has to do with it too, but ya know. Aiming for healthier communication between in general seems like a better option to me rather than dividing the sexes. The fewer amount of teen males admitting to attempting suicide indicates that for me.

    I just think, from my experience, someone of the opposite sex being there wouldn't have that much of a negative impact on bonding between people of the same sex, specifically male, as the article suggests. I also think that friendship is independent of things like gender roles and norms, but I'm sure it rings true for some people.
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  7. #47
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Didn't ask for female input on this one.

    But as always we got it.
    That's how it goes here. Ask for ENTP advice, and see how many other NTs come out of the woodwork, plus a bunch of well-meaning NFs, some STPs, and an STJ with the real answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    My friendships with men tend to lack depth... Showing vulnerability is kinda off-limits. They are usually better for technical discussions though.
    My relationships with women tend to lack depth, with the result that I have very few women friends. Most women I know have no interest in the topics I want to discuss, and seem unwilling to go beyond a superficial level with the topics they will discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    This leaves us with an interesting question: if the virtue that most becomes a man is courage, what is the virtue that most becomes a woman?
    Your premise is flawed. The virtue that most becomes humans is honesty. It may not be sufficient, but is first and foremost necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    When I clicked on this thread, this is what I observed: You only invited men in your title, but you didn't acknowledge women at all. You could have made another thread addressed to women, or you could have explained why you were interested in male-only input. The best would have been to do both. Probably you would still have a woman posting because unofficial rules invite trolling, but regardless - the central point is that you chose to not address women at all and now you're giving negative feedback that we responded and only acknowledging the value of the male responses, not to mention inferring that the discussion would have been better had woman not responded. At least personally I spent a good deal of time and thought on my post, and while it may not have been what you were looking for and I did not expect any response, I also did not expect for my response to be devalued because of my gender.
    Inviting only male input is certainly the OP's prerogative, though given precedent (see above), best saved for a blog or personal thread. Threads posted in The Channels tend to garner responses from acros the membership. That being said, limiting input on a topic such as this seems designed to produce a rather one-sided result, in the nature of confirmation bias. To their credit, however, male respondents have demonstrated a much broader spectrum of thought than the cited article describes. In comparison, women have posted threads on topics very specific to women (e.g. childbirth), and made it clear that male input was welcome, even though the primary intent was to query other women.

    It would be curious to consider how the dynamic of an all-female group changes once a man shows up, but that is for another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The majority of female responses to the article in the OP have not been positive. Why be more generous towards their arguments than they are towards mine?
    It is not a matter of generosity, but rather of accuracy and common sense. It is possible to hold misguided or counterproductive beliefs in good faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    As is our environment. The OP article makes a serious case for the need of male space. I was trying to foster such a space with the thread in the hopes that (absent female input) we may get some more candid responses than we otherwise might.
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I was trying to elicit the most candid male responses I could on the implicit assumption that the fewer female responses to the thread, the more candid the male input is liable to be.
    It would have been better to explain your reasoning in the OP. Women are obviously interested in the article and have relevant input. You could easily have asked them to read but reserve comment, and then invited their input later, after some male-only discussion had taken place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawbawbowba View Post
    All the time they spend on those long-winded posts and you are rewarding every word with attention. This gives the-ones-that-nag the validation they crave. This is incentive for them to intrude further.
    DiscoBiscuit is the OP, but the thread is open to everyone. Responses are thus not directed exclusively at him, nor receiving attention only from him.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #48
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The point was to create an environment to elicit the most candid male responses I could.
    You got mine.
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  9. #49
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    My friendships with men tend to lack depth... Showing vulnerability is kinda off-limits. They are usually better for technical discussions though.
    Yep, it's often like that (and I'm not that into technical discussions in my free time). There are exceptions of course, and I guess they should be cherished. Often, it's when both men have nothing to lose i.e. it's a friendship borne out of compatible humor and lifestyle rather than a specific activity.
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  10. #50
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Something doesn't really make sense about the article, but I'm in full support of guys having guys' nights and girls having girls' nights if that is what they want.

    One thing to be clear on, however, is that friendships come in many different qualities, for both guys and girls -- the best kinds transcend these 'rules' and need no words.
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