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  1. #31
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    I was thinking about this thread a little over an hour ago.

    Today was Leg Day for me with my personal trainer and while I'm doing squats, I'm chatting with him some of the difficulties I've run into moving into my brothers place with him when it occurs to WHAT exactly it was I was chatting with him about. Here we are, two grown men...in a personal gym....working out.....

    ....and I'm bitching about my cats and how filthy my brothers kitchen was and how proud I am now that I've cleaned it up

    I seriously expected Dr. Cox to storm in, take one of my Man Cards, tear it up in front of me, and then storm off with a growl.

    My own experience: This sort of thing only seems to matter to younger folks and starts to loose relevance the older I get. It seems to me, the older I get, the less relevant gender roles tend to become. It becomes more about what we can do as individuals and how we can contribute (Can I cook? Can I clean? Can I do home maintenance? How am I with kids?). I guess it's because when we're younger, we're still kind of "raw" and haven't quite actualized into the individuals we are set to become. When you're older, you're pretty much set in your ways and now it's a matter of who do I want to occupy my time with.

    I will say though, for me personally, that Patriarchy tends to be more of a detriment for me than something that is helpful. There IS something to be said about letting men "be men" and I will fully admit to deriving pleasure from very "manly" activities (however nebulous that may be) and I suppose for those much more disposed toward macho-esque personalities it's a big deal. For guys like me though who bitch about our cats and expend mental calories over the tomato sauce stains on my glass-top stove that I couldn't remove with a FUCKING FLOOR BUFFER - it usually just ends up getting in the way.

    I do think though that women, and society really, need to make up their minds on what the hell they want from "men" in general though because ladies I feel seem to be pulling us in two conflicting directions. I think those of us guys that end up being comfortable with ourselves are those of us who stop just giving a shit and say, "This is me, take it or leave it"
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  2. #32
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not from this humble observers perspective.

    Men fear the judgement of women more than that of the Lord.

    We had an ok thing going on the first page with @Mole & @highlander etc...

    Interestingly the preponderance of responses to the thread have been female. I wonder why that is.

    And I wonder what effect that has on how likely men are to participate in the discussion.
    There is no courage without fear, and so there is no courage without approach anxiety.

    Courage or cowardice matter to a man, and although it is unpopular to say so, they don't really matter to a woman.

    Women for instance will try to manipulate a man by implying he is too cowardly to do what they want. So women understand how important courage is to a man at the emotional level.

    This leaves us with an interesting question: if the virtue that most becomes a man is courage, what is the virtue that most becomes a woman?

  3. #33
    Senior Member OptoGypsy's Avatar
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    Most men where raised by their Moms (especially in the Russian community) so my question is do we really need another woman in our life. The way to fix the problem is that the man should stop chasing the woman and should allow her to chase him without neglecting her.

  4. #34
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  5. #35
    Senior Member OptoGypsy's Avatar
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    Sexy Beasts think alike :p I need to re-watch the movie

  6. #36
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    I wonder if it is in a woman's nature to be proactively virtuous at all. The traits of an impressive woman (at least in my view) is community building and fertility. They should be vigilant caregivers.

  7. #37
    Senior Member OptoGypsy's Avatar
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    The saying does go behind every great Man is a great Woman not behind every Great Man is a Delila or Behind every great Woman is a Bitch and I'm not talking about pets the woman that intimidate men usually go with the cats.

  8. #38
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Generalizations are made about men and women with a utter lack of precision.

    I (perhaps unsurprisingly) don't relate to the author's perspective on much of any level.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #39
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Interestingly the preponderance of responses to the thread have been female. I wonder why that is.

    And I wonder what effect that has on how likely men are to participate in the discussion.
    This thread, the way it has been set up and responded to, is an incredibly demonstrative example of why women feel compelled to push sometimes... because our environment is sometimes ambivalently hostile towards us.

    Let me preface this by saying I am not at all saying that this is personally your fault or your problem, or even that it is men's fault or men's problem. I also completely acknowledge that men get the short end of the stick in some ways, too, which need to be addressed just as expediently. But it is fascinating in terms of the microcosm...

    In any case, consider that women on the forum are completely equal to men in terms of privileges granted by mods and admins, and at least personally I feel little to no sexism in either direction on TypoC as a whole. DB, personally, I feel like you are an individual I may tend to have some disagreements with in terms of perspective, but I respect you and feel like you come to the forum with genuine intentions, and I appreciate your contributions.

    When I clicked on this thread, this is what I observed: You only invited men in your title, but you didn't acknowledge women at all. You could have made another thread addressed to women, or you could have explained why you were interested in male-only input. The best would have been to do both. Probably you would still have a woman posting because unofficial rules invite trolling, but regardless - the central point is that you chose to not address women at all and now you're giving negative feedback that we responded and only acknowledging the value of the male responses, not to mention inferring that the discussion would have been better had woman not responded. At least personally I spent a good deal of time and thought on my post, and while it may not have been what you were looking for and I did not expect any response, I also did not expect for my response to be devalued because of my gender.

    Even removing gender, we can observe that you just introduced a discussion thread onto a forum that was implictly only for a few people where only those few people are acknowledged and affirmed for their response while the others who were not addressed - despite it being a forum open to all sorts of people who regularly reply - are chastised and blamed for the lack of a good thread.

    Doesn't that seem kind of... nonsensical?

    This is the sort of illogical, unclear, passive-aggressive sort of situation we have to deal with in real life that makes people think women are illogical, unclear, and passive-aggressive.

    Again, I don't think this is a male issue or a personal issue. The structure may have been partially conscious and intended on your part, but even if it was, it's incredible how often this very setup tends to present itself IRL without consciousness or intention. I also suspect it crosses the borders of gender, age, race, ethnicity, and any other grouping where there are divisions between more empowered and less empowered subsets.

    As a whole it seems to be a systemic and multifaceted problem that will only improve when we all work together to make change to empower all people.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    You have to understand that this right here, the way you are responding, is why women feel compelled to push sometimes.
    They were pushing before I posted that. That post was a response to a push that had already occurred.

    You only invited men in your title, but you didn't acknowledge women at all.
    Should I have?

    Do I need to acknowledge women in the first post of every thread I start?

    You could have made another thread addressed to women, or at least asked women to refrain from posting if you weren't interested in female input (to which I'm sure you would have gotten complaints, but still) - but you chose to not address women at all and now you're giving negative feedback that we responded and only acknowledging the value of the male responses.
    I had a mighty fine conversation with @Amargith which amounts to the majority of my participation in the thread thus far.

    I did say, no discussion necessary in my OP. Further more I thought that it was pretty obvious who the thread was directed at given the title.

    The majority of female responses to the article in the OP have not been positive. Why be more generous towards their arguments than they are towards mine?

    It's sort of fascinating because the whole thread is a microcosm for the real world. Consider that women on the forum are completely equal to men in terms of privileges, and at least personally I feel little to no sexism in either direction on TypoC as a whole (which is not even getting to the topic of moving beyond gender binary) - and we can observe that you just introduced a discussion onto a public forum that was implictly only for a few people where only those few people are affirmed for their response. Doesn't that seem kind of... illogical?
    Last time I checked 50% wasn't a few.

    I engage civilly with those who I feel give my position the benefit of the doubt and assume I hold my beliefs in good faith. You don't have to agree with me, just don't act like only an idiot would believe as I do.

    While @Amargith and I may disagree on many things, I never feel as though she thinks I'm stupid for holding the positions I do (and I hope she see's that I feel the same way about her beliefs).

    I do feel that however, with many other folks on the forum.

    EDIT - well now I have to respond to your edit as well.

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