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  1. #21
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    My friendships with men tend to lack depth... Showing vulnerability is kinda off-limits. They are usually better for technical discussions though.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Isn't that partly the question though?

    Why is it that those groups need to exist? Why is it that men and women should be afraid of one anothers judgement, moreso than another persons judgement apparently? Just due to the rejection-attraction deal that goes on during the mating dance?

    I mean..for me, Ive always felt more comfortable amidst men *because* it was so much more no nonsense. It saddens me to think that my presence would give them such stress. And ime, it honestly doesn't have to. In fact, I often end up being the person they do talk to, without fear of judgement. At the same time, i do understand what you re talking about, I guess. There is an element of emotional and social politics and a...drive for social power that gets practised in largely female groups, especially in teenage and early twenties, I feel. I also experienced first hand what happened when you added a female with that pov to a group - especially if she sees you as a rival in her kingdom of men. Its...not pretty.

    Otoh, groups that look at the individual connections instead of the gender of those they hang out with are superior to all above mentioned group combinations, ime. There is an ease, playfulness and natural balance that occurs and is...beneficial for all people involved, of all genders.

    Isn't that a better solution than to 'create space for men' as such? To take away the need for such fear of judgement, regardless of the sex of the other person?

    And for that matter...wouldn't it be amazing if that is what could happen in this thread?
    Having hung out extensively with groups that have a "one of the guys girl" and actually having dated one (in college at least), I can tell you that having one around isn't an unpleasant experience.

    But I can also tell you that the dynamic always changes (not always for the better) when a girl is introduced to a group of guys. This applies regardless of how much of a tom boy she is.

    The jokes that go unsaid, topics that get avoided and taming of interactions is real. Guys need guy time. There is a level of "shit I can finally let my hair down" I feel solely in the company of other men, that never exists when a woman is present.

    I do think we need to let men have their own spaces, as we let women have theirs.

  3. #23
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    So wait...when I was in that group, the topics were sex - in full graphic detail - and computers. You telling me it gets worse still?

    I mean..I noticed them toning down their jokes and demeanour towards me, for sure, partly coz I was younger than them, I think. But they didn't seem to pull punches or restrained themselves in any way with the other guys.

    *wishes she could be a fly on the wall now*

    Heck, I owe most of those guys a great deal due to their patience with my never ending questions concerning what it is like to be a man. I dunno..I never felt the need to just hang out with the ladies - in fact, whenever that was enforced, I yearned to be part of the male group instead as only women often gets a bit too...cliquish and PC for me. Meanwhile, I have no problem being completely girly with my best friend while surrounded by guys.

    Perhaps you could petition for a sub forum for men only? Where men only can answer as such...though I'd vehemently appreciate it if you'd at least let us read it - it would teach us so much
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    So wait...when I was in that group, the topics were sex - in full graphic detail - and computers. You telling me it gets worse still?
    You'd be surprised. And we discussed those topics with girls present in our group.

    What wasn't the same was the way the topics were approached.

    I mean..I noticed them toning down their jokes and demeanour towards me, for sure, partly coz I was younger than them, I think. But they didn't seem to pull punches or restrained themselves in any way with the other guys.

    *wishes she could be a fly on the wall now*
    Were they single guys or not?

    Heck, I owe most of those guys a great deal due to their patience with my never ending questions concerning what it is like to be a man. I dunno..I never felt the need to just hang out with the ladies - in fact, whenever that was enforced, I yearned to be part of the male group instead as only women often gets a bit too...cliquish and PC for me. Meanwhile, I have no problem being completely girly with my best friend while surrounded by guys.
    I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to be one of the guys, just that occasionally guys need exclusive guy time. In fact in my college groups the "one of the guys girl" was there more often than not, but we did bro time pretty regularly.

    And we needed it. Bro time is essential, but that's not every night of the week.

    We just need it sometimes, like once a week.

    Perhaps you could petition for a sub forum for men only? Where men only can answer as such...though I'd vehemently appreciate it if you'd at least let us read it - it would teach us so much
    I think that would be a great idea. Should have one for ladies too though.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You'd be surprised. And we discussed those topics with girls present in our group.

    What wasn't the same was the way the topics were approached.

    Were they single guys or not?

    I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to be one of the guys, just that occasionally guys need exclusive guy time. In fact in my college groups the "one of the guys girl" was there more often than not, but we did bro time pretty regularly.

    And we needed it. Bro time is essential, but that's not every night of the week.

    We just need it sometimes, like once a week.



    I think that would be a great idea. Should have one for ladies too though.

    They were mostly single guys/geeks, but it was a mixture. Hell, most of them I helped at some point with translating their exes or their current girlfriends actions
    I sometimes was referred to as their female dictionary, in that group.

    And...well, it was an age group of 16-33 year old dudes. The way sex was discussed...I don't think they'd ever have done that irl in front of women. Maybe it helped that it was an online chat channel. They were more...polite when we met up during the weekend face-to-face -- that is, until they got drunk

    I dunno...of course, I never saw any different as my presence automatically might have changed something, but it seemed to me like during irl meet-ups the group would splinter and they'd have bro-time while I was 2 meters away talking to some other guy. We were a group of 20-30 people, depending on how many would show up. And online of course, you have private chat as well. Granted, I wasn't online all day and they pretty much lived online, so I guess 'bro-time' might've occurred when I wasn't logged in.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    They were mostly single guys/geeks, but it was a mixture. Hell, most of them I helped at some point with translating their exes or their current girlfriends actions
    I sometimes was referred to as their female dictionary, in that group.

    And...well, it was an age group of 16-33 year old dudes. The way sex was discussed...I don't think they'd ever have done that irl in front of women. Maybe it helped that it was an online chat channel. They were more...polite when we met up during the weekend face-to-face -- that is, until they got drunk

    I dunno...of course, I never saw any different as my presence automatically might have changed something, but it seemed to me like during irl meet-ups the group would splinter and they'd have bro-time while I was 2 meters away talking to some other guy. We were a group of 20-30 people, depending on how many would show up. And online of course, you have private chat as well. Granted, I wasn't online all day and they pretty much lived online, so I guess 'bro-time' might've occurred when I wasn't logged in.
    Oh I thought this was all IRL.

    My only experience is IRL, and my group was considerably different than yours. My close fraternity bros and a few girls we knew.

  7. #27
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Oh I thought this was all IRL.

    My only experience is IRL, and my group was considerably different than yours. My close fraternity bros and a few girls we knew.
    I notice the same thing in my real life group of friends, but there is an extra element there as well. When we meet up it is a group of mostly couples. And the dynamic dictates a more polite manner of being. Topics range from polite chit chat, daily news, music, books and films and on occasion games. It's...nice to catch up but also a lot more filled with etiquette and therefore...more boring to me.

    Before that group however coupled up so heavily, or when I was playing a table top game and met up with the men only as the other women had no interest in it, it was a whole other dynamic - one I preferred tbh. The guys relaxed, were less PC and just hung out. The concept of 'Sausage tests' and 'Ladies Night' was later on introduced and I always...sort of wished I could swap gender for a night coz the girls night thing became a combo between talking about work/babies and drinking tea and giggling about the men and playing with make-up (my influence). I asked my INTJ about his nights with the guys and it just sounded like..well, what they usually did when we gamed. These too were geeks though - I tend to be drawn to geeks

    I remember when the second girl came into our gaming circle...most of the time it worked alright but yes, the topics were more tame, streamlined and non-offensive with her there. It is still more casual and relaxed and bro-like than when the couples all gather though. Never could figure out why that was - it could just be due to the number of personalities in the mix. I find that groups of 4-5 people are ideal, regardless of their gender.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I notice the same thing in my real life group of friends, but there is an extra element there as well. When we meet up it is a group of mostly couples. And the dynamic dictates a more polite manner of being. Topics range from polite chit chat, daily news, music, books and films and on occasion games. It's...nice to catch up but also a lot more filled with etiquette and therefore...more boring to me.

    Before that group however coupled up so heavily, or when I was playing a table top game and met up with the men only as the other women had no interest in it, it was a whole other dynamic - one I preferred tbh. The guys relaxed, were less PC and just hung out. The concept of 'Sausage tests' and 'Ladies Night' was later on introduced and I always...sort of wished I could swap gender for a night coz the girls night thing became a combo between talking about work/babies and drinking tea and giggling about the men and playing with make-up (my influence). I asked my INTJ about his nights with the guys and it just sounded like..well, what they usually did when we gamed. These too were geeks though - I tend to be drawn to geeks

    I remember when the second girl came into our gaming circle...most of the time it worked alright but yes, the topics were more tame, streamlined and non-offensive with her there. It is still more casual and relaxed and bro-like than when the couples all gather though. Never could figure out why that was - it could just be due to the number of personalities in the mix. I find that groups of 4-5 people are ideal, regardless of their gender.
    Ahh. My group had (I suspect) more extensive experience with the opposite sex. While we were all intelligent (some of the smarter folks I've known actually) we definitely weren't what most people would consider geeks or nerds. Although we do nerd out on certain topics (those topics just arent considered as nerdy).

    Single men, when in the presence of a woman, will abstain from mentioning anything that will either a) lessen the likelihood of being able to date that woman at a later time or b) lessen the likelihood of being able to date that woman's friends at a later time. This can also apply to men who aren't single.

    The number of issues that can potentially fit into the above a) or b) categories is enormous.

  9. #29
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Ahh. My group had (I suspect) more extensive experience with the opposite sex. While we were all intelligent (some of the smarter folks I've known actually) we definitely weren't what most people would consider geeks or nerds. Although we do nerd out on certain topics (those topics just arent considered as nerdy).

    Single men, when in the presence of a woman, will abstain from mentioning anything that will either a) lessen the likelihood of being able to date that woman at a later time or b) lessen the likelihood of being able to date that woman's friends at a later time. This can also apply to men who aren't single.

    The number of issues that can potentially fit into the above a) or b) categories is enormous.
    True, that is my experience as well - until you make it clear that the worst thing they can do is *not* be themselves around you. That seems to settle it
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    until you make it clear that the worst thing they can do is *not* be themselves around you. That seems to settle it
    This has not been my experience, but YMMV.

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