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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    preposterous. if you tax the top income bracket at 100%, no one is going to work past a certain point (that and it's called stealing).
    There is already stealing, it's simply a matter of degree. But what do you mean by "no one is going to work past a certain point"?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The whole "government isn't inefficient" is an invalid dismissal. There are a lot of things government does more efficiently than market signals.

    The problem lies in information transfer. Imagine that are sitting at a restaurant and need to tell the waiter how much you value one item over the other. I mean, at what price would you buy lobster over steak? Except you can't use numbers. That's the problem the government has. The restaurant has to get supplies; same problem. The market's only real signal is price but it's something.

    Consumers have no way to signal without disposable income.

    It's a bit of a myth that we "need" a consumerist society to motivate people. The original argument was to create it to pacify them. Choice itself isn't even the best motivator, and with it freedom ("choice"). So if you do not need the economic signal then you just need to motivate work. Mass consumption is actually a rather mixed motivator. It took a lot of work to build the tame consumer society we have now. The demand is trained (generated, or value-added) and could largely be replaced. That's what you are looking for. The problem would be redefining the other major motivators, like social recognition. Social status is pretty heavily consumerist, so I'm not sure how that'd even work anymore.

    ---

    That's was Obama's father back when he was an economist in Africa, in context of saving socialism there, in case anyone hasn't seen it reference before.
    You lost me from sentence 1.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    The year was 1965, which was back when the Soviet Union comunist experience was peaking. There was a pretty good context for anyone to believe in that as a viable option.
    Because the economy hasn't collapsed yet.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    your post implies that people owe something to people they don't even know. there is something to be said for some degree of anti-poverty spending and well funded public education, but people are primarily focused on looking out for themselves, their family and, to a lesser extent, their immediate community.
    Yes, it does. As does the morality of most of the world's religions, plus the humanistic philosophy espoused by many atheists/agnostics. You, of course, can espouse a different philosophy, but it will be less conducive to living in a society, especially if widespread.

    The fact of the matter is that while people's primary focus may indeed be on taking care of themselves and their family, many of them are not very effective at this. Moreover, their efforts are thwarted by deliberate actions of others seeking to profit at their expense. But this aspect of the problem requires laws even more than taxes to address.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes, it does. As does the morality of most of the world's religions, plus the humanistic philosophy espoused by many atheists/agnostics. You, of course, can espouse a different philosophy, but it will be less conducive to living in a society, especially if widespread.

    The fact of the matter is that while people's primary focus may indeed be on taking care of themselves and their family, many of them are not very effective at this...
    Social Darwinism.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    Slavery redefined.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy22 View Post
    Slavery redefined.
    Besides that.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    Possible, not desirable.

  9. #19
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    There is already stealing, it's simply a matter of degree. But what do you mean by "no one is going to work past a certain point"?
    because no one is going to work when they receive none of the money they've earned.
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  10. #20
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes, it does. As does the morality of most of the world's religions, plus the humanistic philosophy espoused by many atheists/agnostics. You, of course, can espouse a different philosophy, but it will be less conducive to living in a society, especially if widespread.
    The fact of the matter is that while people's primary focus may indeed be on taking care of themselves and their family, many of them are not very effective at this. Moreover, their efforts are thwarted by deliberate actions of others seeking to profit at their expense. But this aspect of the problem requires laws even more than taxes to address.
    I'm all for generosity (it's dug me into quite a few holes actually), but society is not my family. it's more like a convention where people go to socialize and exchange money for goods. in this analogy, the government is like a convention manager which sets up certain rules in order for the convention to run smoothly.

    I'll take it a step further. I don't believe in implicit responsibility of any kind except for respecting the rights of others. generosity is hardwired into the human psyche and people do not need to feel obligated to give in order to do so (this notion is very unhealthy 2w1). in fact, when people give because they genuinely feel like it, they will feel better about themselves. when you give out of obligation, you are giving in order to avoid guilt, and this is never personally satisfying.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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