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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What actions am I advocating to eliminate them from existence?
    Well then you are as tolerant as Phil Robertson. Congrats.

  2. #82
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Its good for your skin too right?
    BC pills? Yes, they have used them for women with bad acne for many years. Controlling the androgens controls the sebum.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    No I think you believe public policy is more important than the objections of the religious to said policy regardless of the troubling questions of liberty contained therein.
    I might be more considerate of Christians views on issues like this if they were ever consistent. There are hundreds of rules in the Bible they choose not to follow. Why aren't they protesting the shellfish industry?

    Advocating that the religious not be able to force their religion onto others is not the same as killing everyone of that religion. It's not even the same as saying Christians shouldn't be citizens (something GHWB said about atheists). Obamacare isn't telling people they can't believe in Jesus anymore. People can still believe whatever they want.

    On this particular issue, I don't think prescription insurance should even exist (at least not in its current incarnation), so in my "perfect" world this question is moot.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #84
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Well then you are as tolerant as Phil Robertson. Congrats.
    We might be similarly tolerant, but my views are actually defensible, logically. His are based on a utopian fantasy. Heaven: The place where Christians will go to live forever and experience no pain. Not even communism promised a utopia that outlandish.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I might be more considerate of Christians views on issues like this if they were ever consistent. There are hundreds of rules in the Bible they choose not to follow. Why aren't they protesting the shellfish industry?
    Do I really need to argue about how Christian norms have changed, reflecting ohh I don't know, say the decreased danger of eating shellfish now vs 2000 years ago.

    Or that the bible specifically is a snapshot of when it was created reflecting the best understanding of the world at the time.

    In every new age, people have to readjust how their faith fits into a changing world.

    Advocating that the religious not be able to force their religion onto others is not the same as killing everyone of that religion.
    How is being exempted from a MANDATE forcing your religion on everyone else?

    You act as if the country was full of oppressed folks clamoring for freedom from the cruel yoke of Christianity since time immemorial.

    The fact of the matter was that Christianity was the de facto religion (not legal [yes there is a difference]) in the US because of how many people where Christians in this country. It wasn't like all the priests got together after the declaration of independence and conspired to oppress all those that disagreed for the next 180years.

    What real legislation that's in the last decade would you count as Government forcing Christianity on you?

    Where has the tide reversed and gone back since Roe v. Wade?

    It hasn't. Even the Defense of Marriage Act was a mostly defensive measure used to delineate retirement benefits among married vs unmarried households.

    And lest I forget, DOMA was repealed by SCOTUS this summer.

    Increasingly, the debate is about religious freedom, or more specifically peoples right to not be forced to act in conflict with their beliefs because of legislation.

    The fact that Christianity has had a pretty good run in the US historically does nothing to weaken the concerns of religious liberty within the boundaries of this debate.

    It's not even the same as saying Christians shouldn't be citizens (something GHWB said about atheists).
    Proof?

    Obamacare isn't telling people they can't believe in Jesus anymore. People can still believe whatever they want
    The ACA just forces them to violate those beliefs everyday in order to not break the law.

    On this particular issue, I don't think prescription insurance should even exist (at least not in its current incarnation), so in my "perfect" world this question is moot.
    I wasn't arguing about your perfect world, I was saying that you fall more into the public policy camp than the religious liberty camp. Was I wrong?

  6. #86
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    What if the FDA suddenly decides that Kosher butchering violates the US health code?

  7. #87
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Do I really need to argue about how Christian norms have changed, reflecting ohh I don't know, say the decreased danger of eating shellfish now vs 2000 years ago.

    Or that the bible specifically is a snapshot of when it was created reflecting the best understanding of the world at the time.

    In every new age, people have to readjust how their faith fits into a changing world.
    This is all wrong. The morality of the Bible is objective, not subjective or context dependent. Where would humans be without the morality of the Bible to guide us?

    How is being exempted from a MANDATE forcing your religion on everyone else?

    You act as if the country was full of oppressed folks clamoring for freedom from the cruel yoke of Christianity since time immemorial.

    The fact of the matter was that Christianity was the de facto religion (not legal [yes there is a difference]) in the US because of how many people where Christians in this country. It wasn't like all the priests got together after the declaration of independence and conspired to oppress all those that disagreed for the next 180years.

    What real legislation that's in the last decade would you count as Government forcing Christianity on you?

    Where has the tide reversed and gone back since Roe v. Wade?

    It hasn't. Even the Defense of Marriage Act was a mostly defensive measure used to delineate retirement benefits among married vs unmarried households.

    And lest I forget, DOMA was repealed by SCOTUS this summer.
    If there is a religious test for whether or not someone has to comply with the law, that is Congress establishing a religion.

    As for examples of Christians trying to force religion on everyone else, here's one just off the top of my head.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_evolution_hearings

    That was back in 2005, but they're still at it in 2013.

    http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/...nce-standards/

    Increasingly, the debate is about religious freedom, or more specifically peoples right to not be forced to act in conflict with their beliefs because of legislation.
    Well, my religion I just established says paying taxes will send me to hell. What do you say about that? Should the government give Christianity preferred status over my religion?

    The fact that Christianity has had a pretty good run in the US historically does nothing to weaken the concerns of religious liberty within the boundaries of this debate.
    Right. Christians are just a few steps away from being sent to gulags.

    The ACA just forces them to violate those beliefs everyday in order to not break the law.
    There's nothing about the mandate that would force Christians to violate their beliefs because there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits contraception or abortion.

    I wasn't arguing about your perfect world, I was saying that you fall more into the public policy camp than the religious liberty camp. Was I wrong?
    The religious liberty you advocate comes at the cost of others' liberty. There's nothing in the Bible that prohibits slavery. In fact, the Bible gives prescriptions for how slaves should be treated. Therefore, banning slavery clearly infringes on the religious liberty of Christians to keep slaves in accordance with the Bible. Do you think good Christian slave owners got a bad deal?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is all wrong. The morality of the Bible is objective, not subjective or context dependent. Where would humans be without the morality of the Bible to guide us?
    I didn't realize I was dealing with a religious expert.

    On what grounds do you contend that the bible is objective and that there is no room for interpretation?

    Or is this just one of those, because you say so, things.

    If there is a religious test for whether or not someone has to comply with the law, that is Congress establishing a religion.
    So government granting a constitutional religious exemption to a law amounts to the government establishing a religion as opposed to not statutorily forcing a (not insignificant) portion of the populace to violate their beliefs?

    If you think that is establishing a religion, then I've got some beach front property on the moon you may be interested in.

    As for examples of Christians trying to force religion on everyone else, here's one just off the top of my head.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_evolution_hearings

    That was back in 2005, but they're still at it in 2013.

    http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/...nce-standards/
    Before I go any further, I actually had a look at the results of the hearings in Kansas (note it's a school board hearing and not real legislation like I asked for).

    Regarding creationism in the classroom the hearings accomplished exactly this (from the link wiki link you posted:

    The revisions did not entirely eliminate evolution from instruction, but presented it as a theory greatly challenged and disputed, in line with the Discovery Institute's Teach the Controversy campaign. The new standards presented intelligent design as an alternative to evolution through the Institute's Critical Analysis of Evolution.
    There is a difference between positing intelligent design as an alternative to evolution, and forcing that understanding of the world on everyone.

    The other link is a lawsuit, and hasn't forced anything on anyone.

    None of the links you mention affect you in the slightest.

    In the Kansas hearings link, the people of Kansas elected those school board members knowing full well who they were and what they believed in. The hearings they went though may make sense to the voters in Kansas even if they don't make sense to you.

    Do you think the Kansas voters and their duly elected representatives on the school board should not be allowed to determine what they want their local education to look like?

    Do you think some one size fits all regulation coming from DC would work better for them?

    Given the above you haven't shown me were Religion has been forced down Blue America's throat. It hasn't, the states themselves have (and I'm damn glad they do) expansive latitude to determine the laws they want to govern themselves.

    Who are you to say they shouldn't have that right?

    Well, my religion I just established says paying taxes will send me to hell. What do you say about that?
    Good luck convincing the government.

    Should the government give Christianity preferred status over my religion?
    You mean the religion you haven't established yet or even believe in yourself?

    Government wont do anything until you demonstrate that yours is an actual religion. What I think "should" happen doesn't really play a role.

    Right. Christians are just a few steps away from being sent to gulags.
    I'm not arguing that they are.

    There's nothing about the mandate that would force Christians to violate their beliefs because there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits contraception or abortion.
    I didn't know the sum total of Christianity could be reduced down to the text that falls within the four corners of the the Bible.

    Also Genesis 38:8-10:

    Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” And Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so it came about that when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground, in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, so He took his life also.
    The religious liberty you advocate comes at the cost of others' liberty.
    What liberty is violated by a religious exemption to the contraception mandate within the ACA?

  9. #89
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Phil was set up by the interviewer. It's par for the course for every conservative who achieves a modicum of success and prominence to be bombarded with questions about gay marriage and other social issues. I watched David Gregory ask Michelle Bachmann about gay marriage 5 times on Meet the Press. Mitt Romney was asked whether he would ban birth control by George Stephanoulous in a debate. The purpose of these questions is to produce a wedge issue (to alienate the younger and female voters) so that the liberal media can portray conservatives as extremists who are out of touch with society. Pretty much every conservative is called an extremist, a racist, a bigot, etc. Since Democrats/progressives can't defend their positions on the issues, they resort to character assassination. It's all they have left.

    On another note, I congratulate Wilson Cruz for landing a gig at GLAAD. He starred in the 90s TV series, My So Called Life, which is one of my favorite shows.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We stand at a crossroads. The country must decide. Is the endgame here to be that orthodox Christians will henceforth have no voice within their own culture? If so, does this mean we have become a nation of bullies, forcing conformity while calling it tolerance?
    A thousand times, from here to there: yes.

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