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  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Lets contrast Phil's statements with those of Alec Baldwin. Phil's come from the way he understands his world, and the attendant beliefs of that. Alec's (as much as I like watching him on 30 rock) come from being a douche nozzle.
    Frankly, all comments come from beliefs, and I consider these comments to be totally douchebag:

    Robertson made similar remarks in a religious speech given two years before the series began its run on cable network A&E.

    The speech posted on video-sharing website YouTube in February 2010 shows Robertson addressing a supper at Berean Bible Church in Pottstown, Pennsylvania, and condemning homosexuals in the 45-minute talk that touched on the U.S. Constitution and secularization of American society.

    "They (homosexuals) committed indecent acts with one another," said Robertson, clad in his usual camouflage, in the video posted on the church's YouTube page, which has drawn fresh attention in the wake of Robertson's suspension from one of the most-watched shows on cable television.

    "And they received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion," he added. "They're full of murder, envy, strife, hatred. They are insolent, arrogant God haters. They are heartless. They are faithless. They are senseless. They are ruthless. They invent ways of doing evil."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/entert...,1685719.story
    You say I should somehow validate them because they come from "beliefs"? Or that he can hold such opinions while still treating said "insolent arrogant heartless faithless senseless ruthless evil-inventing" God haters with love? Oh, yeah. Sure. I believe that.

    Why do you think the Bible talks about not hating your brother in your heart? When you hate your brother in your heart, then it's easier for you to hate him enough to stick a knife in HIS heart. He assassinated the character of any self-identified gay person with those comments, and it's difficult to believe he can harbor such disgust and judgment for a group of people while still somehow "loving them" as people.

    I think that distinction is very important.
    I don't see a distinction, except that you're willing to whitewash someone who spouts prejudice and hatred out of religious conviction versus someone who is just spouting prejudice and hatred out of personal conviction.

    ....But in the end, the whole thing is yet one more sociopolitical drama playing out in the public sphere, to occupy idle minds for a few days until the next drama comes around. We've seen these kinds of things before. We'll see them again. That's what happens when the media becomes 24/7.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What a dumb post, but typical for you. You paste someone else's thoughts instead of giving your own.

    Cyclical theory does not even deserve the label of "theory" because it has not been experimentally verified. At best, it should be called Cyclical hypothesis. That's before even getting into the details of his "theory", which looks to me like someone trying to shoehorn a pattern onto something that is patternless. It's like cloud watching.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #43
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    As I often say to people who are as confident in their opinion.

    Let's revisit this issue in several years and see what happened.
    Let's call it in 15 years, and not during some minor conservative victory in a previously Confederate state, eh?

    Keep fighting the good fight, may your musket fire strike those Union ghost soldiers true.

  4. #44
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    I don't see how any of this is a surprise. Phil (is that his name?) had the right to not answer the question given to him. He can believe what he wants but it's not always neccessary to announce it to the world. He had to know it was going to cause an uproar. I think that Christians (myself included) can sometimes think they're denying their beliefs by not talking about them. It's all about choosing your battles. Was being kicked off the show and having their show possibly canceled worth expressing his opinion? I suppose only he knows.

    Edit:
    Honestly, I don't see much love or hope coming from this mans comment about homosexuality, which is what Christianity is about: love God, love others and love yourself. Not everyone believes in the Christian doctrine. I would be pretty offended if someone within another belief system told me I was a sinner because of a doctrine I don't believe in. So for anyone to sit here and tell people who don't even believe in the Christian doctrine that they're sinners is so wrong and unloving. That is not how you lead anyone to "tolerate" your views.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  5. #45
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    This man's beliefs are irrelevant, he and his family made the decision to participate in a TV show about thir lives, and as a result have viewers, advertisers and the public to cater to and consider when they would like to speak their mind. If he wanted to spread his political/religious/offensive beliefs he should have stuck to duck hunting or whatever he was doing

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You say I should somehow validate them because they come from "beliefs"?
    Hell no I don't think you should validate anything (depending on your definition of validate).

    I'm not asking you to approve, vouch for, agree with, or in any way support the beliefs espoused Phil Robertson.

    Or that he can hold such opinions while still treating said "insolent arrogant heartless faithless senseless ruthless evil-inventing" God haters out of love? Oh, yeah. Sure.
    Have you seen how Phil Robertson treats homosexuals in his personal life? How do you get from, Phil Robertson voiced his belief that homosexuality is wrong in crude terms to Phil Robertson is a bad person (moral failure/lacking character/shouldn't be on TV)?

    Are you assuming that one cannot disagree with homosexuality and still be a good person?

    I disagree with many things vehemently (as you all well know). I disagree with @Jennifer on a great many things, and have made arguments to that effect many times, and not always in the most delicate language.

    Would you be anymore justified in assuming I'm a bad person IRL (which I don't think you believe) than assuming Phil Robertson is?

    Phil Robertson's statements didn't arise in a vacuum, they are reflective of where, and when and under what religious teachings he was raised.

    What harm has been done by Phil's comments? Where is the injury that justifies A&E pulling the show? What justifies the outrage we've seen in response to the GQ interview?

    I don't see a distinction, except that you're willing to whitewash someone who spouts prejudice and hatred out of religious conviction versus someone who is just spouting prejudice and hatred out of personal conviction.
    I'm not whitewashing anything. And in fact I haven't made a value judgement on the comments themselves at all during this thread.

    The distinction is important because Alec Baldwin's statements don't conform to where or how or when he was raised. There's no extenuating factor explaining that's why Alec said what he said. On the contrary given the circles Alec Baldwin runs in, I'm sure he knows now and knew when he made the statement exactly how much it would offend the chattering class.

    Before I get to Phil's statements, I've gotta ask you...

    Have you ever had an elderly relative say something that is culturally insensitive because they were raised in a different time and place?

    If you are like me, and pretty much everyone I know, then the answer is yes.

    Given Phil's age, where and how he was raised I'm not surprised at all that Phil would vehemently (and in regrettable language) disagree with homosexuality speaking at a church dinner or in a GQ article, or for that matter view the old south with rose colored glasses.

    In my most humble of opinions, Phil's views are more a reflection of the world that spawned him than any serious character flaw.

    Basically in the instant case my issue is this.

    A&E hired the family to be rednecks on TV.

    In the span of a few short years that show goes on to be one of the biggest reality TV hits ever, pulling something like 13 million viewers an episode. A&E specifically wanted to capitalize on the redneck cultural niche. They profited hugely from doing so.

    I would also argue that the believes articulated by Phil, conform (in less hostile terms) to the beliefs of most of the folks that watch the show and a statistically relevant (read substantial) portion of the populace.

    Why then pull the show over comments that hurt no one, and aren't liable to change anyone's mind about the matter?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What a dumb post, but typical for you. You paste someone else's thoughts instead of giving your own.
    I like to give credit where credit is due.

    Maybe I would just prefer to not waste the time it would take to articulate a position that has already been laid out by someone who's dedicated their whole life to it.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Let's call it in 15 years, and not during some minor conservative victory in a previously Confederate state, eh?

    Keep fighting the good fight, may your musket fire strike those Union ghost soldiers true.
    And may tilting at windmills bring you more success in the future.

  9. #49
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    If you prefer to not waste the time it would take to articulate a position that has already been laid out by someone else you shouldn't have posted this thread in the first place.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    This man's beliefs are irrelevant, he and his family made the decision to participate in a TV show about thir lives, and as a result have viewers, advertisers and the public to cater to and consider when they would like to speak their mind. If he wanted to spread his political/religious/offensive beliefs he should have stuck to duck hunting or whatever he was doing
    He was asked for his opinion in an interview.

    It's not like he brings any of this up unprovoked on the show.

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