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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Who isn't tolerating conservative Christians? I tolerate their existence every day. No one is feeding Christians to the lions, though you wouldn't know it given the whining coming from that camp.
    The lady doth protest too much..... methinks.

    So the measure of toleration is not feeding people to lions?

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post

    Your thoughts?
    Typical talking points from Christian conservatives, trying to salvage their identity among an increasingly diverse culture where they are no longer a majority.

    I mean, srsly, historically until the last ten years maybe, Christians didn't give a shit about gay people. The United States run by Christians (cultural and/or religious) pretty much smeared homosexuals, in the 50's equating them with communists and perverts, denying them housing, various states having laws on the books against sexual interaction with their partners until the last few decades. Their jobs were not protected and their careers often lost. In the 80's, AIDS was framed as a "gay disease" and gays were blamed. DADT became the rule in the 90's; the government was happy to send them overseas to fight and use them as resources, as long as they did not admit their marriages and orientation (because it was SO shameful).

    I consider the current support for same-sex marriage and gay people in the last decade to actually be a marker for how OPPOSED these people were against gay people; the latest generation seems this as a way to swing the pendulum back against the past cultural oppression against gays. Christians as a whole didn't give a crap about them, until they started losing the public war.

    So when it comes down to "love the sinner and hate the sin," something Christians have liked to preach as a talking point, the real story is that gay people were still treated as shit because that's something very difficult to do. And if you've got a situation where what is precious to one group is vilified by another, well, you're just going to have these conflicts. There's no great way to resolve it.

    The Duck guy also has said a lot of pretty inflammatory things about gays in the past, decrying their moral character, condemning them. Nothing new here. It's pretty clear he considered them a scourge on "his" America. Not sure how he or anyone else could claim to "love" gay people with words like that. I despise Westboro, but at least they have the balls to accept the ramifications of their beliefs and speech; it seems like a lot of Christian conservatives want to have their cake and eat it too.

    As far as A&E's stance? They are a TV network and a business. They cultivated this show to market to a certain demographic of viewers. Duck guy only has a platform and a presence because A&E is marketing and distributing it. In a capitalist society, based on a free market, if Duck guy is ruining the product, doesn't it make sense for A&E to protect their financial investment? It's not about censorship (even if some special action groups are making noise), it's in the end about money.

    I mean, heck, even Cracker Barrel pulled Duck products originally as a "censorship" kind of thing and then reinstated the sale of them once it was clear they'd lose money on this.

    Money, money, money.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Yes.. very nice. And you should be able to infer from my comments that the answer is yes.
    Your answer is yes... That the aim is for Christians to no longer have a voice within American culture and that we are a nation of bullies forcing conformity while calling it tolerance?

    That is your view?

  4. #14
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Some stupid redneck said an anti-gay thing. Where is the news in this? For anyone needing perspective, meanwhile scientists and business are rapidly creating what is approaching human level AI. That's news.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Tell me more about how you feel about people you disagree with....
    Disagree with? That drastically oversimplifies the issue I have with conservative Christians. Conservative Christians aren't content just believing, they want a theocracy. They'll never admit that's what they want, but deep down in their hearts it is what they truly want. They are anti-American, while simultaneously claiming to be the true Americans.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #16
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Yeah, I noted a while ago that many gay rights supporters (and I AM one!) seem to expect me to treat people who believe homosexuality to be wrong as the equivalent of racial bigots......no. There is also the conflict between religious freedom and the agenda of some organizations, such as threatening a Christian wedding photographer with jail for refusing to directly participate in an activity that violates his or her religious convictions. Sorry, but that's just plain religious persecution, and I will not compromise religious freedom for anybody's feelings.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The lady doth protest too much..... methinks.

    So the measure of toleration is not feeding people to lions?
    Christians are manufacturing the narrative of their own oppression. See Bill O'Reilly's manufactured "War on Christmas" for one example of this. Christians LOVE to portray themselves as victims. They're no better than radical feminists in that respect.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #18
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Your answer is yes... That the aim is for Christians to no longer have a voice within American culture and that we are a nation of bullies forcing conformity while calling it tolerance?

    That is your view?
    It's not view, it's a note of the inevitability of said Christians having less economic and thus less political power, and thus less cultural influence. Tolerance is just one of those sentimental terms used to push and pull people, the real forces in contention use and redefine those terms to suit their needs. It's just noise.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The Duck guy also has said a lot of pretty inflammatory things about gays in the past, decrying their moral character, condemning them. Nothing new here. It's pretty clear he considered them a scourge on "his" America. Not sure how he or anyone else could claim to "love" gay people with words like that. It seems like a lot of Christian conservatives want to have their cake and eat it too.
    He didn't make the statements because he got a wild hair up his ass to do so.

    He made them because that what he believes and what his church teaches.

    A&E promoted the show knowing exactly what kind of folks the Robertsons were, and profited greatly because of the specific cultural niche the Robertson's existed within. A&E then gets its knickers in a twist because the Robertson's turn out to be exactly what A&E knew them to be from the get go. One can't create a show about country folks then flip shit when those country folks happen to espouse Christian beliefs regardless of how deplorable the chattering class finds those beliefs.

    Do you think @Jennifer that if Phil Robertson met a gay person, he would be mean to him? Or do you think that might come home at the end of the day and say to himself, "Jerry was a pretty nice guy, I have no idea why he's gay (don't understand it and don't accept it), but all in all he seemed like an OK person."

    We seem to be going through a period where country and rural themes seem to be gaining prominence in TV programming. I don't think that is a trend likely to stop.

    Lastly, this isn't about dealing with the ramifications of ones beliefs (especially given that ramifications implies that that there are only negative externalities to holding the belief in question) or speech. Phil's speech while admittedly from another era (he was raised in a different time) and tone deaf doesn't clash with what his church teaches.

    A&E knew they were going to get rich off the whole redneck phenomena. Is it reasonable for them to expect Phil to be who he is on the show, and then suddenly turn into a Rachel Maddow guest the instant he leaves the set?

    I think that's a little ridiculous. If you are going to make money off of country folks, that benefit comes with the attendant burden of of not flipping shit when the guy you hired to be a redneck ends up saying redneck stuff in an interview.

    No one is physically harmed by Phil Robertson's opinion. I think some are just beginning to worry as country culture becomes a growing force within media generally.

    Lets contrast Phil's statements with those of Alec Baldwin. Phil's come from the way he understands his world, and the attendant beliefs of that. Alec's (as much as I like watching him on 30 rock) come from being a douche nozzle.

    I think that distinction is very important.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Christians are manufacturing the narrative of their own oppression. See Bill O'Reilly's manufactured "War on Christmas" for one example of this. Christians LOVE to portray themselves as victims. They're no better than radical feminists in that respect.
    So you are blaming the other side for manufacturing a narrative....

    Pot my names kettle. Nice to meet you.

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