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  1. #101
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I do not see anyone attempting to take their freedoms away.
    What do you consider threatening jail and fines or the loss of business licenses against wedding photographers who refuse to do gay weddings for religious reasons, or requiring Catholic business owners to purchase health plans that include birth control?

  2. #102
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    What do you consider threatening jail and fines or the loss of business licenses against wedding photographers who refuse to do gay weddings for religious reasons
    I know you asked Skylight this but I wanted to answer: I consider it discrimination, exactly the same as if these clowns had decided they didn't want to do black weddings or asian weddings for religious reasons, and thus absolutely worthy of being penalized by the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    or requiring Catholic business owners to purchase health plans that include birth control?
    This is something I actually agree with the conservatives on. If the government isn't going to force Jehovah's Witnesses to surrender blood for religious reasons, then I don't think they should mandate Catholics to have to pay for something that's against their religious beliefs. The logic is the same to me.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  3. #103
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    This is something I actually agree with the conservatives on. If the government isn't going to force Jehovah's Witnesses to surrender blood for religious reasons, then I don't think they should mandate Catholics to have to pay for something that's against their religious beliefs. The logic is the same to me.
    To me it's kind of like if a Jehovah's Witness owned a non-religious business and wanted the insurance they provide their employees to not cover blood transfusions because it's against their religion.

    It seems to me, since most couples do not have a dozen children, nearly everyone is using birth control regardless of their religion. If people weren't, the Duggars wouldn't have a TV show because they'd be pretty average.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #104
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    What do you consider threatening jail and fines or the loss of business licenses against wedding photographers who refuse to do gay weddings for religious reasons,
    My personal opinion is that private businesses should have the right to turn down anyone for any reason - though as business owners living in the US, they're implicitly agreeing to participate in the economy as regulated by the US government. The reasoning in the notable New Mexico case was that it violated Non-Discrimination laws of it being illegal for a public service to turn down people based on a number of factors including orientation. Personally, I would not consider wedding photography a "public service". Though, it is important that the core of the case is about citizen rights, not religion. The beliefs of the business owners was a non-issue in the case; the only factor was that they were a "public service" refusing that service to citizens in a discriminatory manner. There was no deliberate targeted persecution against a certain religion.

    or requiring Catholic business owners to purchase health plans that include birth control?
    Again, the issue of guaranteeing that other citizens still maintain their rights.

    In both cases it has nothing to do with the specific religions of the business owners and everything to do with ensuring the rights of all citizens.

  5. #105
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Basically:

    "When getting offended gives people power, people get offended more easily"

    - John Stossell

  6. #106
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    In both cases it has nothing to do with the specific religions of the business owners and everything to do with ensuring the rights of all citizens.
    Religious freedom IS a right of all citizens, and as one of the most basic and fundamental rights (and protected under the 1st Amendment), any laws which restrict religious freedom must do so under a 'strict scrutiny' standard.....and preventing about 3% of any population from feeling hurt or experiencing mild inconvenience when a private service provider cannot serve them without violating their conscience simply doesn't qualify.

    The major issue, for both religious conservatives in this instance and classical liberals in general, is that 'moderate liberals' in America no longer seem to respect freedom of conscience* as being at or near the hierarchy of rights, a right upon which virtually all other rights are conceptually derived, the dilution of which degrades the functioning, and if left unchecked the very existence, of the entire 'rights' paradigm.

    *Much like freedom of speech is no longer respected as a basic and fundamental right in Canada and the EU, as evidenced by their 'hate speech' laws.

  7. #107
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I know you asked Skylight this but I wanted to answer: I consider it discrimination, exactly the same as if these clowns had decided they didn't want to do black weddings or asian weddings for religious reasons, and thus absolutely worthy of being penalized by the law.
    The logic behind laws prioritizing non-discrimination in private businesses on account of race is based on extreme national circumstances (and therefore a compelling state interest) that do not apply to gay marriage; what you are supporting is the dilution of a fundamental right in order to prevent hurt and mild inconvenience for about 3% of the population*, as opposed to the basic capacity to participate in the economy for a large minority of the population, as was the case with racial discrimination. That is not nearly enough justification for the further dilution of religious liberty unless one believes that freedom of conscience is simply not an especially important right.

    *That, not to mention the far more important element of unequal treatment by the state, is a good enough reason to support gay marriage, but not a good enough reason to restrict the religious freedom of people who disagree.

  8. #108
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Religious freedom IS a right of all citizens, and as one of the most basic and fundamental rights (and protected under the 1st Amendment), any laws which restrict religious freedom must do so under a 'strict scrutiny' standard.....and preventing about 3% of any population from feeling hurt or experiencing mild inconvenience when a private service provider cannot serve them without violating their conscience simply doesn't qualify.

    The major issue, for both religious conservatives in this instance and classical liberals in general, is that 'moderate liberals' in America no longer seem to respect freedom of conscience* as being at or near the hierarchy of rights, a right upon which virtually all other rights are conceptually derived, the dilution of which degrades the functioning, and if left unchecked the very existence, of the entire 'rights' paradigm.

    *Much like freedom of speech is no longer respected as a basic and fundamental right in Canada and the EU, as evidenced by their 'hate speech' laws.
    The problem is that there is a rather fine line between advocating religious freedom and supporting people in following their consciences versus condoning people to use religion and conscience as an excuse for denying others the same privileges as themself.

    If people's conscience prevents them from providing a public service, then they simply shouldn't work in the public domain. Like I said before, I don't have any problem with a private photography business turning people away. It's private. Though there will be certain places with overlap - for instance, a private medical facility would still need to grant equal visitation rights.

  9. #109
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Basically:

    "When getting offended gives people power, people get offended more easily"

    - John Stossell
    I believe it was P. J. O'Rourke who said that offense is taken, snatched up, and hoarded as a precious commodity.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

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  10. #110
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I didn't realize I was dealing with a religious expert.

    On what grounds do you contend that the bible is objective and that there is no room for interpretation?

    Or is this just one of those, because you say so, things.
    I'm no expert, but I am aware of what the experts believe. Objective morality is one of those beliefs. William Lane Craig is one well-known Christian philosopher who argues that morality is objective. He is far from alone in this belief. It is only the most liberal Christians who believe morality is subjective. And let's be honest, those aren't the Christians we're talking about here.

    So government granting a constitutional religious exemption to a law amounts to the government establishing a religion as opposed to not statutorily forcing a (not insignificant) portion of the populace to violate their beliefs?

    If you think that is establishing a religion, then I've got some beach front property on the moon you may be interested in.
    We're all either equal under the law or we're not. The moment the government starts granting religious exemptions is the moment the government starts has established a religion. Period. My position is philosophical, not legal. I know that this is not the case, legally, but it should be.

    Before I go any further, I actually had a look at the results of the hearings in Kansas (note it's a school board hearing and not real legislation like I asked for).
    They're still elected officials.

    Regarding creationism in the classroom the hearings accomplished exactly this (from the link wiki link you posted:

    There is a difference between positing intelligent design as an alternative to evolution, and forcing that understanding of the world on everyone.
    They're doing this with children because they're more impressionable, easier to fool. Brainwash people when they're young and you avoid the necessity of forcing beliefs on adults. The brainwashing that conservatives incessantly complain about happening in public schools is actually psychological projection.

    The other link is a lawsuit, and hasn't forced anything on anyone.

    None of the links you mention affect you in the slightest.

    In the Kansas hearings link, the people of Kansas elected those school board members knowing full well who they were and what they believed in. The hearings they went though may make sense to the voters in Kansas even if they don't make sense to you.

    Do you think the Kansas voters and their duly elected representatives on the school board should not be allowed to determine what they want their local education to look like?
    Religion belongs in theology class, not science class. Intelligent design is religion in disguise, NOT science. Christians have yet to even propose an experiment which could falsify the Intelligent Design hypothesis. It's not a theory.

    Do you think some one size fits all regulation coming from DC would work better for them?
    Are those the only options? Either let idiot conservatives run the show or let Washington run everything? There aren't any other options?

    Given the above you haven't shown me were Religion has been forced down Blue America's throat. It hasn't, the states themselves have (and I'm damn glad they do) expansive latitude to determine the laws they want to govern themselves.

    Who are you to say they shouldn't have that right?
    You don't think the teaching of creationism in science class is forcing religion onto others? And what does "Blue America" even mean? There are people in Kansas who are not conservative, Republican, or even Christian.


    Good luck convincing the government.
    I should not have to convince the government. The government has no place in determining what is and what is not a religion.

    You mean the religion you haven't established yet or even believe in yourself?

    Government wont do anything until you demonstrate that yours is an actual religion. What I think "should" happen doesn't really play a role.
    Do Christian pastors have to prove to the government they really believe in God before they're allowed to establish a church and benefit from the tax exemption?

    I didn't know the sum total of Christianity could be reduced down to the text that falls within the four corners of the the Bible.
    Everything within the Bible is the word of God. Anything added since is the word of Man.

    What liberty is violated by a religious exemption to the contraception mandate within the ACA?
    Well, if an employee doesn't want their employer forcing them to live by their moral standards, I suppose they could quit, but that's a very risky proposition in this economy. But my position is more about the law applying equally to everyone, and not giving people exceptions because they worship a particular sky god.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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