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  1. #31
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    While mysogyny may be systemic, some of the biggest mysogynists are women. Until we stop doing it ourselves nothing else will change. Why do we care how men respond to us anyway? Its only one portion of the problem, fix the part which is easiest to fix first, the mysogyny within ourselves. Our approach of changing the rules of the game has failed miserably over the longterm, maybe its time to stop playing that game completely.

    As to the quote portion, I have no idea what you mean. Seriously none. You do really think the way in life is to invite further belittlement while you feel low? Thats a logic I dont and dont want to follow. I see no value in that.
    No, you misunderstand what I'm saying. I agree that women need to change internally. However, that doesn't necessarily prevent or address mistreatment externally. Consider this: at your workplace, you have a manager who speaks condescendingly to women. You appeal to HR, but there is no result. You appeal and still no result. Now what? Your options are to change workplaces, file an independent lawsuit, or attempt to address it situation by situation each day at work. Regardless of what you choose, you are forced to exert more energy on top of already being discriminated against. That's what I mean by being kicked when you're down.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    No, you misunderstand what I'm saying. I agree that women need to change internally. However, that doesn't necessarily prevent or address mistreatment externally. Consider this: at your workplace, you have a manager who speaks condescendingly to women. You appeal to HR, but there is no result. You appeal and still no result. Now what? Your options are to change workplaces, file an independent lawsuit, or attempt to address it situation by situation each day at work. Regardless of what you choose, you are forced to exert more energy on top of already being discriminated against. That's what I mean by being kicked when you're down.
    Yeah I thought I was misunderstanding something. I dont get metaphors very well. The situation you describe is very common. I've encountered it a lot but not because of my gender, its usually a personality clash thing. Its tough but not insurmountable and a lot of males meet with similar in the workplce as well. Humans are by their nature discriminatory, if you are different to others in any capacity they will find a reason to marginalise you. Its horrible but its also life around other humans.

    This is what that woman in the article is experiencing, her situation isn't usual, therefore she's a liar and should be shunned. This is just the way society works, no-one wants to be tainted by association because groups close ranks and turn on people quickly. If you aren't 'normal' then you're out of the group. Acceptance by the group is of prime importance to many and they just cannot understand anyone who will risk being ousted by the group. Others have washed their hands of me so many times now I never aeek acceptance by the group anymore. Its easier to just be permanently on the outside than to ride the rollercoaster of being ousted. If you were never accepted then rejection of you becomes meaningless.

  3. #33
    WhoCares
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    No, you misunderstand what I'm saying. I agree that women need to change internally. However, that doesn't necessarily prevent or address mistreatment externally. Consider this: at your workplace, you have a manager who speaks condescendingly to women. You appeal to HR, but there is no result. You appeal and still no result. Now what? Your options are to change workplaces, file an independent lawsuit, or attempt to address it situation by situation each day at work. Regardless of what you choose, you are forced to exert more energy on top of already being discriminated against. That's what I mean by being kicked when you're down.
    Yeah I thought I was misunderstanding something. I dont get metaphors very well. The situation you describe is very common. I've encountered it a lot but not because of my gender, its usually a personality clash thing. Its tough but not insurmountable and a lot of males meet with similar in the workplce as well. Humans are by their nature discriminatory, if you are different to others in any capacity they will find a reason to marginalise you. Its horrible but its also life around other humans.

    This is what that woman in the article is experiencing, her situation isn't usual, therefore she's a liar and should be shunned. This is just the way society works, no-one wants to be tainted by association because groups close ranks and turn on people quickly. If you aren't 'normal' then you're out of the group.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    True, though the fact that I still get treated far better by males when I have makeup on than not isn't particularly helpful. It's systemic.
    Yeah, When I lost a bunch of weight I was amazed by how much better women treated me (not that I was ever obese or anything). They actually acknowledged my existence, for one thing. It's sad, really, but it's one of those things.

  5. #35
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    While mysogyny may be systemic, some of the biggest mysogynists are women. Until we stop doing it ourselves nothing else will change. Why do we care how men respond to us anyway? Its only one portion of the problem, fix the part which is easiest to fix first, the mysogyny within ourselves. Our approach of changing the rules of the game has failed miserably over the longterm, maybe its time to stop playing that game completely.
    As to the quote portion, I have no idea what you mean. Seriously none. You do really think the way in life is to invite further belittlement while you feel low? Thats a logic I dont and dont want to follow. I see no value in that.
    bingo!
    I've been saying this for years. the largest prevalence of sexism is men vs men and women vs women. slut shaming is a perfect example of this (what guy really cares if a girl is a slut? if anything, they're likely to see it as positive)
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  6. #36
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Yeah I thought I was misunderstanding something. I dont get metaphors very well. The situation you describe is very common. I've encountered it a lot but not because of my gender, its usually a personality clash thing. Its tough but not insurmountable and a lot of males meet with similar in the workplce as well. Humans are by their nature discriminatory, if you are different to others in any capacity they will find a reason to marginalise you. Its horrible but its also life around other humans.
    That's very true. Gender dichotomy is just one conceptualization of the lines discrimination runs on, and sometimes it's very much shades of gray.

    This is what that woman in the article is experiencing, her situation isn't usual, therefore she's a liar and should be shunned. This is just the way society works, no-one wants to be tainted by association because groups close ranks and turn on people quickly. If you aren't 'normal' then you're out of the group. Acceptance by the group is of prime importance to many and they just cannot understand anyone who will risk being ousted by the group. Others have washed their hands of me so many times now I never aeek acceptance by the group anymore. Its easier to just be permanently on the outside than to ride the rollercoaster of being ousted. If you were never accepted then rejection of you becomes meaningless.
    And perhaps transcending to the point of understanding that all people are outsiders and "insideness" often changes over time. I was just commenting over in the culture shock thread that my very Southern (USA) suitemate told me seriously that I could never call the South my home, even though it's my birthplace, because my parents were not born here. It hurt at the time, as I was still coping with being away from home for the first time in my life, but later my thought was, it's funny that she sees me as an outsider because of my parents' origin, when her parents' parents' parents were outsiders. That's only two generations removed, maybe just hitting 100 years. Not very long for that scheme to change. A laughing matter when I think of her trying to claim a special status. "In" and "out" are mutable based on perception and aren't really true categories in and of themselves. My suitemate was just wielding an interpersonal weapon, basically. Like you said, it's essentially meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    bingo!
    I've been saying this for years. the largest prevalence of sexism is men vs men and women vs women. slut shaming is a perfect example of this (what guy really cares if a girl is a slut? if anything, they're likely to see it as positive)
    Is it? I would be inclined to say that sexism tends to occur unintentionally on an individual interpersonal level because of language, cultural norms, and other factors that tend to become "invisible" in a personal context where there are so many more individually-colored variables. I think it can be a gray area between sexism and competition, or sexism and cooperation. You raised the example of "slut shaming". Consider the competition side: women may not like other women who subvert relationship norms because they gain easier access to a desired resource. And the cooperation side: women who objectify themselves are harming the cause of women's rights as a whole. I knew a girl in college who literally had a tally of men's penis sizes on the wall above the dorm bed where she slept with them. There was little healthy about her behavior. She didn't use protection, didn't treat the men respectfully, wouldn't require them to treat her respectfully, didn't take precautions to ensure her sexual habits weren't disruptive to those living nearby, was cheating on her long-distance boyfriend, had a drug dealing much-older lover who would stay weeks in the dorms, and so on. As often happens, one unhealthy habit was linked to another. Part of the problem, I think, is that the negativity can arise from a reasonable place, but gets swept into an overgeneralization and then unfairly applied.

    So then, maybe individually men may not have a problem with a "slut", but we have concepts like "fun for a lay but wouldn't take her home to my mother" - a woman being labelled as unsuitable for a serious relationship because of her sexual habits. And it blurs, with individual versus group opinion. Maybe you don't want a partner who's very experienced, and that's fine, it's just personal preference. But when does personal preference turn into group discrimination? When people stop being judged on individual merit, I think. Do women tend to stereotype other women and men with men more than between genders?

    I don't know that it's gotten to the point worldwide where this is true, especially given cultures where females still are significantly less valued than men. Probably there are places in which that is true. But then again, I'm not sure that it really matters, because it doesn't change how sexism has to be addressed. The point that everyone must address sexism both internally and externally on a personal level is what is so important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Yeah, When I lost a bunch of weight I was amazed by how much better women treated me (not that I was ever obese or anything). They actually acknowledged my existence, for one thing. It's sad, really, but it's one of those things.
    Yeah, it is sad. I'm sorry you experienced that. It totally runs against all the messages of internal empowerment being so important. To some extent there's little we can do about changing external discrimination against us and we just have to grow a thick skin to it. But that's not the way it should have to be...

  7. #37
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @skylights
    Is it? I would be inclined to say that sexism tends to occur unintentionally on an individual interpersonal level because of language, cultural norms, and other factors that tend to become "invisible" in a personal context where there are so many more individually-colored variables. I think it can be a gray area between sexism and competition, or sexism and cooperation. You raised the example of "slut shaming". Consider the competition side: women may not like other women who subvert relationship norms because they gain easier access to a desired resource. And the cooperation side: women who objectify themselves are harming the cause of women's rights as a whole. I knew a girl in college who literally had a tally of men's penis sizes on the wall above the dorm bed where she slept with them. There was little healthy about her behavior. She didn't use protection, didn't treat the men respectfully, wouldn't require them to treat her respectfully, didn't take precautions to ensure her sexual habits weren't disruptive to those living nearby, was cheating on her long-distance boyfriend, had a drug dealing much-older lover who would stay weeks in the dorms, and so on. As often happens, one unhealthy habit was linked to another. Part of the problem, I think, is that the negativity can arise from a reasonable place, but gets swept into an overgeneralization and then unfairly applied.
    speaking of being implicitly judgmental
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  8. #38
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    speaking of being implicitly judgmental
    It may well be judgmental in regard to her actions, though not in regard to her character. Certain actions, including the above, weren't making her happy or increasing her wellbeing. We were close friends, Elfboy, but she had self-destructive habits and she was very open about that. I'm not making a judgment as to whether her actions were "right" or whether she deserves respect and compassion. She was wiser than me in a lot of ways and she taught me a lot about how to live better. I still enjoy her friendship and I owe her my wild times in college!

    We would talk about it sometimes ourselves, especially because we both struggled with body image issues and resulting self-destructive behavior. She had a hard adolescence and had attachment issues. I, too, have attachment issues. She and I are actually very alike at the core, but I am much more withdrawn and cautious while she is outgoing and experimental. I worried about her sexual behavior because I could see that it wasn't healthy for her body or her heart. The more she did it, the more emptiness she would express. She in turn worried about me, rejecting guys before anything even started while privately obsessing but not wanting to come out of my shell. That behavior was not healthy on my part, either. I guess we saw in one another an inverted mirror of our own problems.

    My friend is doing well now. She transferred to another school more in her line of interests and graduated with a degree in the field she wants to enter, stopped using hard drugs, moved to a town a little further away and bigger than her tiny hometown but still close to her family, married her high school sweetheart, and just had a baby. She channels her obsessive and very physical energy into long distance running with her dad. She's taken up getting big, intricate, beautiful, colorful tattoos. She's still wild and crazy and I'm glad because she's an incredible person and her wildness and craziness is a part of that. But I'm glad she's not harming her body with overdosing, glad she's not contracting STDs and not knowing where they came from, glad she's not drunk in a class she's failing, glad she's not letting men walk all over her, glad she's not engaging with them because she's trying to heal wounds that couldn't be healed by causal sex, glad she's not lying to them, both for her and their sake, and glad she's not torn over wondering whether her boyfriend loves her or whether they'll ever make it work. I have nothing against casual sex itself, though I feel that often it's symptom of hurt and a bandaid fix for lack of intimacy instead of a psychologically sound practice. I have much against unprotected casual sex on medical and public health grounds. I guess if all that's judgmental of me then I think my judgments are sound. I want my friend to be happy and healthy for her own sake.

    In the context of sexism... she did treat most men sexually like objects and conquests, regardless of how much I like her. She allowed men to treat her badly if they were an avenue to sex and drugs. She would lie, cheat, and steal from other women when she was after a man. Sneaking her 30-year-old drug dealer in and letting him sleep in the dorm for weeks wasn't safe or fair for the other students. She wasn't a "slut", but there were a lot of reasons that people could justifiably feel infringed upon by her behavior. I guess I'm inclined to see sexism mostly as a facet of a bigger problem of unequal treatment and systemic discrimination, which in turn is a facet of aggregate knowledge and cultural precedence and resource allocation and learned behavior and individual perspective and personal health and hurt. My friend was trying to fill her emptiness with sex and drugs and losing herself again and again. Once she redirected her behavior... things started falling into place. She stopped perpetuating a cycle of emptiness and started creating her own life full of love. To me it seems like fostering individual wellbeing is the starting point for healing many of the rifts in the world.

    Merry Christmas!
    Last edited by skylights; 12-25-2013 at 03:47 PM.

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