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  1. #61
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Or, do you expect female representation in male dominated fields to approach their representation in the populace generally in the future?

    If so, do you then expect male representation in female dominated fields to approach their representation in the populace generally?
    I would expect gender representations to come close to parity in all fields, with exceptions for those where biological differences really do come into play, e.g. jobs requiring large people with substantial upper body strength, or conversely small people with a delicate touch. Even these distinctions don't correspond perfectly to gender. Jockeys, for instance, are primarily male but need to be small; while female fashion models are usually tall and statuesque.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If frequently seems however, that gender distributions below their level of representation in the populace are used as irrefutable proof of discrimination without considering that one gender may just not be as interested in those jobs.
    When gender distributions differ significantly from their representation in the population, it is an indicator of gender bias. This could just as easily originate in upbringing and education, however, rather than discrimination in the workplace. As you rightly point out, people have to show interest in a career that's non-traditional for their gender to be considered for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Gender norms wouldn't be norms if on the whole, more people didn't conform to them than do.

    I should have used different terms, but would you argue with the contention that more men are naturally interested in being mechanics than women?
    A norm is nothing more than a standard or rule imposed on people. If people were naturally that way, nothing would need to be imposed. People conform to all sorts of norms that do not arise organically from our biology, and it really doesn't take that long to establish them. Just look at norms like driving on the right (or left) side of the road, or shaking hands, or even saying please and thank you. Some of these originated with good reason; some of those reasons are no longer valid; and some are much more arbitrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I probably should have explained that second part better. I didn't mean to insinuate that there is no relationship between cultural influences and gender distributions, I should have said that once the cultural influence has been taken into account, that more men still prefer that profession.

    Basically I'm saying that mens over representation in those fields is reflective of more than cultural norms.
    History does not bear this out. Consider first the relatively rapid changes in gender distribution within many professions. Teacher and secretary, two professions associated with women for several decades, were originally almost entirely male, while the number of men in the originally female profession of nursing has more than tripled since 1970. Doctors, originally all male (women not even permitted into the field), are now over 1/3 female in the U.S., with women making up almost half of medical residents. Notice that it somehow took longer for it to become OK for men to become nurses than for women to become doctors. Perhaps because while a doctor's authority was traditionally "unfeminine", it is still a caring profession, and thus in line with many female stereotypes.

    As another example, consider hard, dirty, unpleasant, even debilitating labor. In the developing world, this is often the work of women. Enjoying far less equality than in the U.S., women in these areas are at the bottom of the social ladder and get the least desirable jobs. In the poorest areas of the U.S., similar occurs. I already referenced the "resume" of Sojourner Truth, which was relatively commonplace. There is nothing biological or otherwise inherent in women that makes them unsuited, unable, or unwilling to do the heavy, dirty work of life. I'm sure they would rather be doing something different, as would most men consigned to similar work, but you do what you have to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    TL;DR: Just 'cause she's a hellraiser publishing for the popular press now doesn't mean she's not legit.
    Well, if she plays fast and loose with history and throws together arguments that don't hold up, I don't really care what her background is. The quote I highlighed in my first post on this thread was the only sensible thing she wrote here.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #62
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    ^ The statistics will prove one of us right over the next couple of decades.

  3. #63
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    ^ The statistics will prove one of us right over the next couple of decades.
    I hope change will come that quickly, but I'm not that optimistic. We will never be able to determine what anyone's interests or desires would be in the absence of cultural conditioning, since we cannot create such an environment. The most we can do is track changes and correlations, understanding that correlation does not always imply causality.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #64
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I am a lady ok?????
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  5. #65
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    My dad actually sent me a link to this article. What am I supposed to make of that? No comment or anything to go with the link. Does he agree? Disagree? Does he have vague but strong feelings about it?

    Classic.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  6. #66
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    When women started to train as combat soldiers, it was all over bar the shouting.

    And it is plain the shouting is going on in the external world, while the internal world remains conveniently silent.

    Yet we hear whispers from the psyche.

    No one knows the answer but we are drawn to bonding, but it is far too red hot to touch, so we shy off. We are shy.

    Just as the Victorians were shy about sex, we are shy about bonding.

    Research into bonding is forgotten.

    Bonding doesn't seem to have a place in the hook-up world - or does it?

    How can one psyche bond with another? What exquisite mechanism underpins and gives flesh to the bond?

    How do we fall in love? How do we change when we are bonded? How are our children bonded to us?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    When women started to train as combat soldiers, it was all over bar the shouting.

    And it is plain the shouting is going on in the external world, while the internal world remains conveniently silent.

    Yet we hear whispers from the psyche.

    No one knows the answer but we are drawn to bonding, but it is far too red hot to touch, so we shy off. We are shy.

    Just as the Victorians were shy about sex, we are shy about bonding.

    Research into bonding is forgotten.

    Bonding doesn't seem to have a place in the hook-up world - or does it?

    How can one psyche bond with another? What exquisite mechanism underpins and gives flesh to the bond?

    How do we fall in love? How do we change when we are bonded? How are our children bonded to us?
    then, how does it happen?

    what is bonding? and what is love?

  8. #68
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    ^ The statistics will prove one of us right over the next couple of decades.
    IMO, on average and speaking only at the level of the group rather than the individual, there's legitimate differences between genders in terms of what kind of work they want. However, I think until America has a year of paid maternity leave, you're getting unnecessarily contaminated results. America reinforces all sorts of sexist social conditions because women need to depend on men at a far greater rate than other countries have (which means we're not talking ideal terms here, we're talking real outcomes).

    American women will always be cornered into a "be a terrible mother/be a terrible career woman" divide because there is no career on-ramp for them once they take an off-ramp for an infant. Babies need one-on-one secure bonding with a primary caregiver and the evidence is so clear. Everyone knows this.

    Canadian women take the year, nurture the baby, and then get back on the fast-track at big jobs and keep up, which then makes for less sexism culturally. American women simply can't get back on the track because there's no legal protection for this. When you drop out of the game, you're fucked down here, and then you depend on men, and the cycle continues.

    The longer I'm here the more I notice the insidious increase in sexism. If you give a legally mandated on-ramp, then you give women options other than leaning on men. And when you provide legitimate options it makes for less gender difference. (Canada is still gendered, but it is noticeably less so.)

    In my read of the evidence, when there are legally mandated on-ramps, addition, depression, etc. rates will noticeably drop, too.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by elodia View Post
    then, how does it happen?

    what is bonding? and what is love?
    Women have a cycle of 28 days while men have a cycle of 21 days.

    The cycles are easy to measure against many parameters, only the male cycle is of a lower amplitude than the female, and of course no menses.

    And the magic occurs when a male and female are in olfactory contact for about eight hours a day, such as sleeping in the same room.

    And the magic bond forms as the female cycle comes down to 25 days, and the male cycle rises to 25 days, and they are cycling together, and are bonded.

    When the male is bonded with the female at 25 days, he becomes much more settled, and works in tandem with the female.

    So I think we can say that natural selection gave us bonding to conceive and care for new life.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    IMO, on average and speaking only at the level of the group rather than the individual, there's legitimate differences between genders in terms of what kind of work they want. However, I think until America has a year of paid maternity leave, you're getting unnecessarily contaminated results. America reinforces all sorts of sexist social conditions because women need to depend on men at a far greater rate than other countries have (which means we're not talking ideal terms here, we're talking real outcomes).

    American women will always be cornered into a "be a terrible mother/be a terrible career woman" divide because there is no career on-ramp for them once they take an off-ramp for an infant. Babies need one-on-one secure bonding with a primary caregiver and the evidence is so clear. Everyone knows this.

    Canadian women take the year, nurture the baby, and then get back on the fast-track at big jobs and keep up, which then makes for less sexism culturally. American women simply can't get back on the track because there's no legal protection for this. When you drop out of the game, you're fucked down here, and then you depend on men, and the cycle continues.

    The longer I'm here the more I notice the insidious increase in sexism. If you give a legally mandated on-ramp, then you give women options other than leaning on men. And when you provide legitimate options it makes for less gender difference. (Canada is still gendered, but it is noticeably less so.)

    In my read of the evidence, when there are legally mandated on-ramps, addition, depression, etc. rates will noticeably drop, too.
    I would be exceedingly surprised if we ever institute a year of paid maternity leave. We have 12 weeks of unpaid leave currently.

    The cost of a year of paid leave is too much for businesses to be willing to bear. Now I could see maybe 12 weeks of paid leave, but that would be the absolute limit.

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