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  1. #51
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Well I'm glad you've said so.

    It is my belief that on the whole men (note not all men) are more inclined to trades such as being a mechanic than are women.

    It is my further belief that this inclination exists absent cultural norms.

    Would you agree or disagree?
    What does "on the whole" exactly mean? 50+1%? 60%? 70%? 90%? And does it mean that women are not inclined to those jobs?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  2. #52
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm sure that plays a very small role, but come on, no one's out there shouting from the roof tops that women can't be longshoremen, they just don't apply.

    I don't see that changing.... ever.
    I have worked in a male dominated field since the mid 90s, specifically transportation (back end support/operations capacity), with truck drivers. The vast majority of them are independent contractors who own their own equipment and pay their own bills and it's merely their ability to DRIVE safely and rudimentary grammar/math skills that gets them the job. I've yet to see a solo woman driver, I've only seen them as ride alongs with another male (presume partner?). The pay isn't bad for what you do, about 40-60k depending on who you know and how "hard" you work. By hard I mean put in long hours on the road away from family/friends and lots of alone time, hehe. There is no "system" that is keeping women out of this field, yet they choose not to pursue it.

    Clearly a quota is needed, like they have in France and want to push onto the rest of the E.U. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/05/bu...anted=all&_r=0

    Why aren't there quotas for the rest of the jobs out there? Oh I see, they want quotas on the "good" jobs, but not the rest of the "crap" ones that men fill historically.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #53
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    The first part seems self-evident, considering the actual gender breakdown in the field. I'd be inclined to disagree with the second part, though again, I don't think we can know that. I think the cultural influence is way stronger than you do, I guess we've established this.

    Today, sewing is thought of as a woman thing. Men are often considered "girlymen" if they like to knit or sew. But that's not based on any kind of natural inclination, IMO. Most tailors were men 100, 200 years ago.

  4. #54
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The first part seems self-evident, considering the actual gender breakdown in the field. I'd be inclined to disagree with the second part, though again, I don't think we can know that.
    I probably should have explained that second part better. I didn't mean to insinuate that there is no relationship between cultural influences and gender distributions, I should have said that once the cultural influence has been taken into account, that more men still prefer that profession.

    Basically I'm saying that mens over representation in those fields is reflective of more than cultural norms.

  6. #56
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Today, sewing is thought of as a woman thing. Men are often considered "girlymen" if they like to knit or sew. But that's not based on any kind of natural inclination, IMO. Most tailors were men 100, 200 years ago.
    There are several fields that have undergone dramatic feminization in recent years. Take veterinary medicine for example (NIH article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340187/) Except for large animal vets, there is actually a shortage (FDA article http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/.../ucm278274.htm) I imagine it has something to do with the fact that it's very strenuous work. Hmm correlation?
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #57
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post

    What is this woman on??
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I've wanted to bring up the some of the points mentioned in this article, but I thought they would be better received (especially on this site) if authored by a Woman.

    From Camille Paglia over at Time:
    I just wanted to credit @DiscoBiscuit with his choice of voice. I do think this conversation needed to be anchored by a credible woman's voice. Camille Paglia may be an ENTP hellraiser extraordinaire (seriously--check out some of her videos), but she's absolutely as legitimate a "playa" in the gender politics academic community as can be. Her feminist book, published by Yale Uni Press, got a lot of people talking back in the day. I mean, undeniably, people more often hate her than not. But she's got credibility like few others.

    When most men voice similar opinions, IME it's usually anchored in a male privilege perspective that conflates their privileged ignorance with legitimately arguable points and they can't always tell the difference between their ignorance and what's a legitimate point. Paglia is just an off-the-rails ENTP but there are few who can match her deep legitimacy both as an academic with the Ivy publisher and someone who has spent a lifetime researching and publishing on gender politics.

    Paglia's always been legit. She's also one of those people who spouts off their thoughts and then is like "yeah I totally don't agree with that today, I was an idiot yesterday." *cough ENTP cough* But she is deeply immersed in this conversation and has a voice worth listening to.


    TL;DR: Just 'cause she's a hellraiser publishing for the popular press now doesn't mean she's not legit.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #58
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    This is why I posted in response to you. I didn't see the sarcasm, just the text "who would the women need protecting from?".
    Context matters.


    If you take the logic another step, since there is no benefit to be gained by "getting rid" of men,
    No. You're doing it wrong. That is not the outcome of taking that line of logic one step further. That is a whole different line of argument, with a different starting premise.

    regards to who fights the inevitable conflicts as there will inevitably be other future ones requiring an armed force. Then why advocate for it in the first place with that as one the reasons?

    Men are bad because they cause wars.
    Getting rid of men will get rid of war.

    The irony is that it is men who pay the heaviest overall price of war by a huge margin (BMJ http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7659/1482) and 98% (OIF, OND & OEF http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22452.pdf) of the combat casualties (historically its 99.9% men), you'd think feminazi's would be ok with that... *boggle*



    The whole concept of male disposability just makes me cringe and is hardly about "equality". Heck, everytime I see the word male/men during discussions about the "utility" of males I remove/replace it with Jew/Black etc. and then it quickly becomes apparent what the discussion is really about.
    Feminazi? You've drank her koolaid. She broadly painted this as the feminists agenda (which is not representative of reality nor majority). I do not know of any prominent feminist school of thought whose central argument is to "get rid of men". That is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous, is to take that line of argument seriously, and defend it. Your argument is basically tilting at windmills.

    That woman is a provocateur. She presented a thought experiment, broadly painting an agenda on feminists that is clearly not there, then decided to make an "argument" based on her shoddy premise, which was leaky as hell.

    She calls herself a "dissident feminist". Cute little term that would be more accurately represented as anti-feminist.

  9. #59
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    TL;DR: Just 'cause she's a hellraiser publishing for the popular press now doesn't mean she's not legit.
    To me, it's beside the point that I've never seen her argue for something I agree with. Ostensibly she must stand for some things I agree with, but she never bothers focusing on those.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #60
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Well I'm glad you've said so.

    It is my belief that on the whole men (note not all men) are more inclined to trades such as being a mechanic than are women.

    It is my further belief that this inclination exists absent cultural norms.

    Would you agree or disagree?
    I certainly don't agree. It is easy to explain how cultural might create such a preference, it is much harder to explain how testes or ovaries automatically lead to trade skills.

    And in general, these sorts of suppositions tend to not fare well over the course of time. Where females once lagged way behind in math, they are now surpassing males more and more often. Secretaries and nurses used to both be male jobs. Skirted clothes and long hair were common on men at different times and places. The assignment of pink and blue to girls and boys is not even 200 years old, etc..

    All of these things, observed in their time, might be perceived as a sign of innate gender preferences or abilities.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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