User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 118

  1. #21
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Or finance for that matter, how many women here would find a high pressure sales environment in Finance attractive?

  2. #22
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,643

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Jesus. My husband doesn't even fish. People do not operate bulldozers with their penises (I hope). I'm the one that got down in the damn crawlspace to do the wiring and plumbing in our house. I built the computer desk and the book shelves. I'm 5'2", 120 lbs, and if I'm even a little bit butch no one has ever mentioned it to me.

    What is this woman on??
    All of this

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Anyway, I have no clue about this debate I thougth younger people (<30?) were long past these "problems" - and if they aren't, they should get over it now.
    Amen.

    But the medieval mindset is still very much present. It was recently announced that Germany now has a female secretary of defense and some of the reactions are nauseating.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  3. #23
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Do you mind elaborating on what you think Paglia's point was and what your's is/was?
    From the article:
    After the next inevitable apocalypse, men will be desperately needed again! Oh, sure, there will be the odd gun-toting Amazonian survivalist gal, who can rustle game out of the bush and feed her flock, but most women and children will be expecting men to scrounge for food and water and to defend the home turf.
    This is filled with holes, if you take this "argument" of hers to its logical conclusion. I sarcastically pointed out the most prominent gaping hole.

    Men are biologically equipped to be the fighters, and protectors.
    When the apocalypse hits, women will be sorry that there are no men there to do those dirty work for them. Like defending territories.
    From who?
    Not from other men, as given her previous premise, men won't be there, but, as you said, it will be from other women.
    So, it's an equal playing field, making her argument for the biological advantage of men obsolete (and thereby, a "need" for men).
    I.e., she nullifies her own argument.

    (this is but one of the many logical inconsistences presented in her argument. It grates my Ti something fierce.)

  4. #24
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    From the article:


    This is filled with holes, if you take this "argument" of hers to its logical conclusion. I sarcastically pointed out the most prominent gaping hole.

    Men are biologically equipped to be the fighters, and protectors.
    When the apocalypse hits, women will be sorry that there are no men there to do those dirty work for them. Like defending territories.
    From who?
    Not from other men, as given her previous premise, men won't be there, but, as you said, it will be from other women.
    So, it's an equal playing field, making her argument for the biological advantage of men obsolete (and thereby, a "need" for men).
    I.e., she nullifies her own argument.

    (this is but one of the many logical inconsistences presented in her argument. It grates my Ti something fierce.)
    Would you pick up garbage for a living?

  5. #25
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    I'd be a garbage collector, sure, if I needed a job and that was available and they would hire me. I hear they get paid nicely, and I don't think my desk job is doing my health any favors. (Although I'm not sure garbage collectors do as much physical work as they once did, since everything's automated now.) I might not love all the smells but work is work.

    I didn't particular want to take care of other people's children, either, but it was something I could do well (having been trained in the fine art of childcare from an early age, since the assumption was that I'd be a mother by trade someday) and people would pay me to do it. How many clients do you think I'd have had if I'd been a guy? The idea of men taking care of small children is so against-the-grain, culturally, it's been the premise of at least two comedy movies I can think of. Daddy Day-Care and Kindergarten Cop. People are discouraged from certain jobs, or not considered if they do try, based on their gender. Maybe more people would want jobs that break gender expectations if they weren't soaking in those gender expectations since birth.

  6. #26
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'd be a garbage collector, sure, if I needed a job and that was available and they would hire me. I hear they get paid nicely, and I don't think my desk job is doing my health any favors. (Although I'm not sure garbage collectors do as much physical work as they once did, since everything's automated now.) I might not love all the smells but work is work.

    I didn't particular want to take care of other people's children, either, but it was something I could do well (having been trained in the fine art of childcare from an early age, since the assumption was that I'd be a mother by trade someday) and people would pay me to do it. How many clients do you think I'd have had if I'd been a guy? The idea of men taking care of small children is so against-the-grain, culturally, it's been the premise of at least two comedy movies I can think of. Daddy Day-Care and Kindergarten Cop. People are discouraged from certain jobs, or not considered if they do try, based on their gender. Maybe more people would want jobs that break gender expectations if they weren't soaking in those gender expectations since birth.
    Well there is just a cultural explanation for everything isn't there.

    A better question would be, would you seek that job out?

    Or, do you expect female representation in male dominated fields to approach their representation in the populace generally in the future?

    If so, do you then expect male representation in female dominated fields to approach their representation in the populace generally?

  7. #27
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    There usually is a cultural explanation for these kinds of things, yes. I didn't think that was even controversial.

    The jobs I've sought out have been the jobs I've been trained and encouraged to do from an early age. Those are feminine or gender-neutral jobs (writing, editing, childcare, census, teaching/tutoring). And there are cultural reasons for the things I was trained and encouraged to do as a young person. Same for my brothers. Like, my dad took my brother out to work on his 1964 Chevy pickup. I wasn't asked, and the message was clearly sent that that was a guy thing. Maybe I would have an aptitude for mechanics if it had been encouraged and nurtured in me, I don't know. There'd be no point in me seeking out a mechanic job now. My brother was also asked to work on our extended family's tobacco farm every summer after he turned 13. The opportunity was never offered to me, and when I asked once because I wanted to raise money for school, I was dismissed. I babysat instead. Likewise, I'm sure my brothers never pursued babysitting- but there's no logical reason why they couldn't have except that they might have been laughed at by other guys (or girls!) and people didn't tend to want male babysitters.

    If we started encouraging children to develop the talents that they exhibit without channeling them into gender-based expectations, I do think the number of men in female-dominated fields would rise, and vice-versa. It has already started happening. There are lots of male nurses now- that used to be unheard-of. There's even an uptick in men in childcare- "mannies," I think they're called. If there were no stigma about it being girly, I do think there would be more men who would enjoy childcare more than I did. Same for women who might enjoy male-dominated jobs if the skills/attributes that make people good at those jobs were encouraged in them from an early age. It may never reach total 50/50, especially for jobs where there really is a physical requirement for, say, upper body strength (I don't dispute that there are physical differences between the sexes) but I don't think the current distribution represents only innate gender-based strengths/talents/desires.

  8. #28
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    3w2 so
    Posts
    1,671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'd be a garbage collector, sure, if I needed a job and that was available and they would hire me. I hear they get paid nicely, and I don't think my desk job is doing my health any favors. (Although I'm not sure garbage collectors do as much physical work as they once did, since everything's automated now.) I might not love all the smells but work is work.

    I didn't particular want to take care of other people's children, either, but it was something I could do well (having been trained in the fine art of childcare from an early age, since the assumption was that I'd be a mother by trade someday) and people would pay me to do it. How many clients do you think I'd have had if I'd been a guy? The idea of men taking care of small children is so against-the-grain, culturally, it's been the premise of at least two comedy movies I can think of. Daddy Day-Care and Kindergarten Cop. People are discouraged from certain jobs, or not considered if they do try, based on their gender. Maybe more people would want jobs that break gender expectations if they weren't soaking in those gender expectations since birth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    There usually is a cultural explanation for these kinds of things, yes. I didn't think that was even controversial.

    The jobs I've sought out have been the jobs I've been trained and encouraged to do from an early age. Those are feminine or gender-neutral jobs (writing, editing, childcare, census, teaching/tutoring). And there are cultural reasons for the things I was trained and encouraged to do as a young person. Same for my brothers. Like, my dad took my brother out to work on his 1964 Chevy pickup. I wasn't asked, and the message was clearly sent that that was a guy thing. Maybe I would have an aptitude for mechanics if it had been encouraged and nurtured in me, I don't know. There'd be no point in me seeking out a mechanic job now. My brother was also asked to work on our extended family's tobacco farm every summer after he turned 13. The opportunity was never offered to me, and when I asked once because I wanted to raise money for school, I was dismissed. I babysat instead. Likewise, I'm sure my brothers never pursued babysitting- but there's no logical reason why they couldn't have except that they might have been laughed at by other guys (or girls!) and people didn't tend to want male babysitters.

    If we started encouraging children to develop the talents that they exhibit without channeling them into gender-based expectations, I do think the number of men in female-dominated fields would rise, and vice-versa. It has already started happening. There are lots of male nurses now- that used to be unheard-of. There's even an uptick in men in childcare- "mannies," I think they're called. If there were no stigma about it being girly, I do think there would be more men who would enjoy childcare more than I did. Same for women who might enjoy male-dominated jobs if the skills/attributes that make people good at those jobs were encouraged in them from an early age. It may never reach total 50/50, especially for jobs where there really is a physical requirement for, say, upper body strength (I don't dispute that there are physical differences between the sexes) but I don't think the current distribution represents only innate gender-based strengths/talents/desires.
    Really astute!
    RobertCalifornia: TL thinks im black
    RobertCalifornia: shes my homegurl
    Hive: arent you
    SpankyMcfly: wait... you arent?

    thoughtlost: I am not really religious. I just like getting free stuff from churches.

  9. #29
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    There usually is a cultural explanation for these kinds of things, yes. I didn't think that was even controversial.

    The jobs I've sought out have been the jobs I've been trained and encouraged to do from an early age. Those are feminine or gender-neutral jobs (writing, editing, childcare, census, teaching/tutoring). And there are cultural reasons for the things I was trained and encouraged to do as a young person. Same for my brothers. Like, my dad took my brother out to work on his 1964 Chevy pickup. I wasn't asked, and the message was clearly sent that that was a guy thing. Maybe I would have an aptitude for mechanics if it had been encouraged and nurtured in me, I don't know. There'd be no point in me seeking out a mechanic job now. My brother was also asked to work on our extended family's tobacco farm every summer after he turned 13. The opportunity was never offered to me, and when I asked once because I wanted to raise money for school, I was dismissed. I babysat instead. Likewise, I'm sure my brothers never pursued babysitting- but there's no logical reason why they couldn't have except that people didn't tend to want male babysitters.

    If we started encouraging children to develop the talents that they exhibit without channeling them into gender-based expectations, I do think the number of men in female-dominated fields would rise, and vice-versa. It has already started happening. There are lots of male nurses now- that used to be unheard-of. There's even an uptick in men in childcare- "mannies," I think they're called. If there were no stigma about it being girly, I do think there would be more men who would enjoy childcare more than I did. Same for women who might enjoy male-dominated jobs if the skills/attributes that make people good at those jobs were encouraged in them from an early age. It may never reach total 50/50, especially for jobs where there really is a physical requirement for, say, upper body strength (I don't dispute that there are physical differences between the sexes) but I don't think the current distribution represents only innate gender-based strengths/talents/desires.
    I think we will see some small increase in gender distribution among gender dominant professions, but a small increase is all it will be because there just aren't as many tom boys, and girly men out there.

    Lets say that today 1 of every 20 garbage men is a woman. We'll probably see an increase, but it will be small to something like 1 out of every 18 garbage men being a woman.

    Its not as if vast swaths of the female populace are clamoring to be longshoremen. A vocal minority wants the chance to do that kind of work and they should get that chance.

    But its not as if this will be some sort of mass sea change where we will be seeing half of our nations infantry suddenly become female.

    EDIT - I'm not saying the cultural influence doesn't exist, I am saying that it doesn't explain nearly as much as some think it does.

  10. #30
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    I want to make clear that I'm not complaining about my dad not asking me to work on his truck with him. It was just an example. My dad is awesome. But he grew up in the 50s and women didn't work on trucks.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-11-2016, 05:34 AM
  2. Gender Bias in Type Identification / Interrelating
    By ptgatsby in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-24-2007, 05:08 PM
  3. Dawkins and Evolution, a discussion (moved to new thread)
    By hereandnow in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 05-18-2007, 11:41 AM
  4. Does SJ vs SP account for gender bias?
    By Tayshaun in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-17-2007, 08:11 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO