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  1. #11
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Jesus. My husband doesn't even fish. People do not operate bulldozers with their penises (I hope). I'm the one that got down in the damn crawlspace to do the wiring and plumbing in our house. I built the computer desk and the book shelves. I'm 5'2", 120 lbs, and if I'm even a little bit butch no one has ever mentioned it to me.

    What is this woman on??
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #12
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    It was always the proper mission of feminism to attack and reconstruct the ossified social practices that had led to wide-ranging discrimination against women. But surely it was and is possible for a progressive reform movement to achieve that without stereotyping, belittling, or demonizing men. History must be seen clearly and fairly: obstructive traditions arose not from men’s hatred or enslavement of women but from the natural division of labor that had developed over thousands of years during the agrarian period and that once immensely benefited and protected women, permitting them to remain at the hearth to care for helpless infants and children. Over the past century, it was labor-saving appliances, invented by men and spread by capitalism, that liberated women from daily drudgery.
    The highlighted is quite correct, but the article goes a bit downhill from there.

    1. What the author calls the "natural distribution of labor" became also an unbalanced distribution of power that actually ran contrary to the value of women's contributions to society. This came not from any survival need, but simply from what appears to have been a male desire for control. (For a good explanation of the origins of this, see Riane Eisler's The Chalice and the Blade.)

    2. As later paragraphs of the article point out, men have hardly been free from daily drudgery. Indeed, that has been the lot of the majority of the population for much of human history. As for danger, what men have risked in hunting and protection, women have risked in childbirth.

    3. I wonder how many of those labor-saving devices would have been invented by women had women been afforded the opportunities to do so? Not much was invented by blacks either, for similar reasons, and around half of them are men.

    From my long observation, which predates the sexual revolution, this remains a serious problem afflicting Anglo-American society, with its Puritan residue. In France, Italy, Spain, Latin America, and Brazil, in contrast, many ambitious professional women seem to have found a formula for asserting power and authority in the workplace while still projecting sexual allure and even glamor. This is the true feminine mystique, which cannot be taught but flows from an instinctive recognition of sexual differences.
    What of the "masculine mystique"? Are men similarly to project sexual allure and glamor, even in the workplace? I for one prefer sexual interaction stay out of the workplace altogether, and remain a private and personal matter. Those sexual differences are overrated, in any case, and really are at the level of personal taste and preference.

    After the next inevitable apocalypse, men will be desperately needed again! Oh, sure, there will be the odd gun-toting Amazonian survivalist gal, who can rustle game out of the bush and feed her flock, but most women and children will be expecting men to scrounge for food and water and to defend the home turf.
    Quite true, as long as we keep raising our daughters to think of these jobs as "men's work", either beneath their ladylike dignity, or beyond their ability. See Sojourner Truth's famous "Ain't I a Woman" speech for a better assessment of the situation.

    Misconceptions like these just fuel the sexism that does remain in the world, rather than making it possible for men and women to share life's burdens and benefits more evenly.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #13
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Can't speak for other countries, but this is indeed true for Brazil.
    In Italy and France it's a mixed bag, if a woman is the boss in a "normal" job (industry, services) where there's not much customer interaction, then she's normally going to dress in a very casual and low-key fashion. If she's in politics or HR or - insert any job where technical prowess isn't that important - then she's going to try to be sexy and glamorous. However, if she goes overboard she'll be quickly perceived as tacky - think about Berlusconi's girls. All of this "IME", of course.

    Anyway, I have no clue about this debate I thougth younger people (<30?) were long past these "problems" - and if they aren't, they should get over it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    3. I wonder how many of those labor-saving devices would have been invented by women had women been afforded the opportunities to do so? Not much was invented by blacks either, for similar reasons, and around half of them are men.
    It may even be that plenty of them were invented or suggested by women and then finalized / marketed by men, since that's how society was organized. I may have had weird experiences in my life, but I know lots of women who are pretty good with "tools" (tools, not toys, for the dirty minds of yours).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #14
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Jesus. My husband doesn't even fish. People do not operate bulldozers with their penises (I hope). I'm the one that got down in the damn crawlspace to do the wiring and plumbing in our house. I built the computer desk and the book shelves. I'm 5'2", 120 lbs, and if I'm even a little bit butch no one has ever mentioned it to me.

    What is this woman on??
    My feelings also.

    This article is so cheeky it drives me to respond but so lacking in merit each time I muster the effort I chastise myself for wasting time.

    Magic and Coriolis have it, but I don't think they have exhausted the possible criticisms.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  5. #15
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Each other. Women are "almost" as violent/aggressive as men in most categories. In such a man free/low % world I'd see women taking up the obligations that men currently hold, that of soldier. Do you really think that a woman couldn't start/cause a war?
    I always thought the man was the head, but the woman was the neck.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Hypatia's Avatar
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  7. #17
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    3. I wonder how many of those labor-saving devices would have been invented by women had women been afforded the opportunities to do so? Not much was invented by blacks either, for similar reasons, and around half of them are men.
    I agreed with all of your points, but this in particular was the thing that stood out to me as I was reading the article. I'm glad we have washing machines, but I want my daughter to have the opportunity to invent things like washing machines as well as use them. I was steered away from science fields on the assumption that I would be at home with children and should save the good science jobs for men who need to support families. Like hell will I ever let anybody send that message to my daughter. I want the same for my son but we're not working against culture for that for him. People have been calling him a "little scientist" since he was born, whereas they usually called my daughter a princess or a mama. (I called her a scientist, soldier, etc. when she did things that seemed sciency or soldiery or whatever, just to make sure she got the message from somewhere that those fields were available to her.)

  8. #18
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    Women don't seem to want to do the same jobs men do.

    Surely there are women in male dominated fields including soldiering these days, but women don't actively desire these jobs in the same numbers that men do.

    No one seems to have addressed this.

    There is a difference between being able to do something and wanting to do something.

  9. #19
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Why do you think that might be? Maybe because they're actively discouraged from entering those fields?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Why do you think that might be? Maybe because they're actively discouraged from entering those fields?
    I'm sure that plays a very small role, but come on, no one's out there shouting from the roof tops that women can't be longshoremen, they just don't apply.

    I don't see that changing.... ever.

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