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  1. #101
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Just because it's a traditionally male field doesn't mean that women can't be happy working in it or rather good at what they do for goodness sake

    I work in a warehouse and I work there by choice despite the fact that I'm overeducated for it and that my background is more white collar. I LIKE going and working my ass off over the course of the day and I feel a lot better if I've gotten to wear myself out both physically and mentally before I go home. The challenge of thinking on my feet, improvising quick solutions and organizing labor and distribution of work to fill the needs is kind of thrilling in an odd way. Furthermore, I've discovered a talent for workplace layout design and anticipating what people are going to need to get their jobs done that I'd never realized that I had before.

    The position that I usually fill is one that has traditionally been filled by men because it's hard physical labor and if you do the job right you need to be able to get people to do what you need for them to do even if they have no desire to do so. I wanted to work in that role since I started but kept getting brushed off because I'm a small person with a quiet voice and a polite manner of speech. I persisted in pestering people until I was finally given a chance to take that role for an afternoon under the promise that if I wasn't one of the best people they'd ever seen in the position I would quit asking to do it again. I did a better job than the men. From that point on there have been a lot more women filling that position and they've done a pretty fantastic job, but they normally would never have been given that opportunity just because they're smaller and considered to be less tough.

    basic point of this is that there are ingrained stereotypes as to what people should be good at based on gender and that women (and minorities) have not always been afforded the opportunity to show that they CAN be good at jobs traditionally held by men (or white people). Yes, people expect that I should want to settle down and start a family and look for emotional fulfillment and all of that bullshit, but to tell the truth I don't WANT kids and I'm perfectly content as things are without having to go cry on somebody's shoulder or join a sewing circle or whatever it is that girls are supposed to do to feel fulfilled. Fuck that... I shouldn't be held to different standards just because I don't have balls. Just let me try the position out and I'll prove that I'm one of the best that you've ever seen...

    and to tell the truth it should be based on skill and merit for everyone instead of preconceived notions based on bullshit like gender or race... I should only have to prove that I'm good instead of that I'm better than the guys, but oh well. Guess we've got to start somewhere
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #102
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Because in addition to being the moral thing to do, other nations have done it and the evidence says this:
    1.) I don't consider it moral to screw over business owners, young workers, and childless workers without regard for their legitimate rights and interests, nor is it immoral to take certain measures to escape the consequences of unjust laws and regulations; a year of paid maternal/parental leave goes far beyond what I consider reasonable subsidization of parents with children, as that constitutes a substantial burden on other people (and the salary component is likely the least of said burdens).

    2.) Exactly which studies are these that isolate year-long, paid parental leave as a variable leading to better economic outcomes?

  3. #103
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) I don't consider it moral to screw over business owners, young workers, and childless workers without regard for their legitimate rights and interests, nor is it immoral to take certain measures to escape the consequences of unjust laws and regulations; a year of paid maternal/parental leave goes far beyond what I consider reasonable subsidization of parents with children, as that constitutes a substantial burden on other people (and the salary component is likely the least of said burdens).

    2.) Exactly which studies are these that isolate year-long, paid parental leave as a variable leading to better economic outcomes?
    Well, my dear Redneck, we know that child rearing practices delineate our personalities.

    And six months parental leave at full pay gives the opportunity for the parents to bond with their child and start to help them meet their life goals. And this leads to empathic and creative personalities.

    And this is the aim of civilization achieved through liberal democracy.

    So I guess you are asking us: do we want better economic outcomes or do we want empathic and creative adults?

  4. #104
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elodia View Post
    i found it unusual you said bonding is physical. But, it's so simple.

    i think that, many people have never had any true bonds.

    maybe due to busy schedules, the way they have been bought up with de-emphasis to the physical (body, environment), most people believe the mind trumps the body, how is first in command of the body, that the body is not important at all. that it doesn't actually matter to respect the body. there are a lot of reasons, i think. i don't know for sure, that is. (maybe especially now that everything has gone digital.)

    your idea brings me back to a time when i was a child, for 8 years i used to spend every waking minute of my day with a boy the same age. we used to do everything together, sleep together, take baths together, go down the slide together. i was told before he used to be alone most of the times (busy parents) and play video games all day, have temperamental problems such as throwing microwaves all over the place, doing badly in school, but for some reason i had my mind set since i met him, that i would be his friend. whenever his mom would leave him at my house so I could help him with his schoolwork. not that i was that good a student, i basically just helped him finish his homework so that he would have free time with me to play outside. and i would make him spend most of our days outside. just messing about.

    i can't imagine having a relationship like this with most anyone, anymore. it's almost too strange of a request.

    whenever people talk about "relationships" i just get a strange knot in my stomach. because in my head i am just seeing a very intensely awkward situation unfold, of a man trying to hit it off with a woman he doesn't even know. it makes me groan in embarrassment for them. and also feel a bit bad. that humanity has come to this. that adulthood is the first time people do these kinds of things. and seeing adults in action like this, well this is why i think adults are dumber than children many, if not all the time!

    because they might get married, but actually not know each other so well. maybe since they are busy with work. maybe since neither of them likely knows how to love. and with each passing day each person changes, there is something new to learn. and it feels like they are actually drifting apart with each day. but who would be the deviant to question and point out they weren't actually in love? no one, at least not in the face. that would be taboo.

    ideally when i would grow up, i'd get a job in sync with the person i cherished, so i could continue the old days of childhood, working alongside him. doing something we liked to do, so it would be play, but with bigger toys, different puzzles.

    it would happily ever after. if he were still here.

    maybe people might scoff and think it is weird. the physical closeness. that they would rather do something else more interesting, be somewhere else better. than to just merely hang out. just messing around.

    but if those moments were stopped, frozen, and replayed everyday for an eternity, i think i would be fine with that. i think that would be heaven.
    What a wonderful post.

    And we were just talking about you the other day, that is Ratty, Badger, Toad and me were talking about you as we had a picnic down by the river.

    'You know', said the Water Rat, 'it might be nice to ask Elodia to join us on a picnic one day'.

    'What does Elodia mean?', asked Toad. 'It means', said Badger, 'a marsh flower'. 'How lovely', said Ratty, 'we must invite her, I think she would like the river'.

    'Well', I said, 'I will mention it to her the next time we are talking. I know Elodia likes to go out and play, and I am sure she would like to join us messing about in a boat on the river'.

    'And don't forget the picnic', said ratty, 'I will bring a lovely hamper'. 'What's inside it?' I asked.

    'There's cold chicken inside it, coldtonguecoldhamcoldbeefpickledgherkinssaladfrenc hrolls–
    cresssandwichespottedmeatgingerbeerlemonadesodawat er—', said the Water Rat.

    'O stop, stop!' I said 'This is too much!'

    'Do you really think so?' enquired the Rat seriously. 'It's only what I always take on these little excursions; and the other animals are always telling me that I'm a mean beast and cut it very fine!'

    So with a little company, and more than enough to eat, and boating on the river, we are sure to have a lovely day.

  5. #105
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And this is the aim of civilization achieved through liberal democracy.

    So I guess you are asking us: do we want better economic outcomes or do we want empathic and creative adults?
    The aim of civilization through liberal democracy is human liberty and higher living standards, with liberty receiving at least marginally higher priority than perceived means of achieving the latter. A year of leave substantially restricts the liberty of business owners, young workers, and childless workers and arguably imperils aggregate material prosperity and timely generational transitioning*, which seem like good reasons for a bit of caution and skepticism.

    With that argument, you may as well mandate that at least one parent receive at least three years of leave to dedicate on parenting (hello 'mommy wars'); the impetus behind @Usehername's recommendation was the economic dependence of homemakers (temporary or otherwise), and its perceived link to allegedly higher levels of sexism in the United States relative to Canada (I do in fact believe that at least the first part of that argument contains an element of the truth, I'm simply saying that's not a good enough reason to restrict the liberty and opportunities of others in such a way).

    *To avoid confusion, I'm referring to good opportunities for young workers who might want to start families and need decent employment to responsibly do so, not firing older employees before they are eligible for promised retirement benefits.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    A norm is nothing more than a standard or rule imposed on people. If people were naturally that way, nothing would need to be imposed. People conform to all sorts of norms that do not arise organically from our biology, and it really doesn't take that long to establish them.
    If norms do not arise naturally, what is the supernatural force that causes them to arise? Patriarchy?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #107
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The aim of civilization through liberal democracy is human liberty
    Certainly the aim of Western Civilization is liberty and equality.

    And as we have discovered, power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so liberal democracy limits power.

    And under liberal democracy, liberty limits equality and equality limits liberty.

    And liberal democracy has the runs on the board in limiting power over slaves, women and now children.

    At the same time Adam Smith taught us that private greed leads to public prosperity, under regulated, competitive capitalism.

    So to say that the aim of civilization is liberty is special pleading.

    And such special pleading leads to corruption.

  8. #108
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If norms do not arise naturally, what is the supernatural force that causes them to arise? Patriarchy?
    Norms are not spontaneous expressions of inherent tendencies. They are tools used by people to control their fellows. As with any tool, they can be used for good or for ill.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #109
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And under liberal democracy, liberty limits equality and equality limits liberty.
    And under liberal democracy, the prioritization, by definition contained in the very term, is liberty.

  10. #110
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    I find it very amusing how I can run around in public bald and without a shirt on, whereas if a woman did so, she would face severe punishment and absolute mortification!

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