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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kquirk View Post
    Um, we're talking about people going shopping. Any body count is completely unconscionable. Shootings, stabbings, stampedes, at fucking Toys r Us and Walmart.
    What can I say. People get crushed when crowds panic and surge at rock concerts and stadiums. And Black Friday pretty much turns every store in America into a stadium event. Stores aren't designed for that. People go a little nuts. Like I said, I'm actually surprised the body count isn't higher.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I did go shopping, but I got like seven books, and I got them at Goodwill. No stampede, either.
    What books did you get?

  3. #23

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    Wow, so much harumphing and tut-tutting in this thread. Seven deaths and 83 injuries over seven years in a country of 300 million people? I'm sure more people have died in stores over the last seven years of natural causes. Just because someone makes a counter doesn't mean it's an actual thing.
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  4. #24
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saudade View Post
    What books did you get?
    Stuff about music around the world, The Hobbit, something about California grasslands, some book with nice color photos of birds, etc.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Stuff about music around the world, The Hobbit, something about California grasslands, some book with nice color photos of birds, etc.
    Score.

  6. #26
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    I had to pick up some groceries. The grocery store wasn't busy. My brother works in the deli there and says it's always dead Black Friday.

    I did buy the Kindle Game of Thrones bundle on Amazon because it was $10. I have them all in paperback and may never read them again, but I couldn't resist the price. That's a lot of text for ten bucks.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I remember researching death statistics back in 2006 and learned just how easy it is to compile and obtain statistics on deaths.

    Approximately 1,800 (give or take) die from unintentional falling every year, 1.8 million emergency room visits and over 400 thousand hospital admissions each year, no joke, check the CDC website and see for yourself. ~ Final death figures for 2010 (most recent available) http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf

    The CDC report on deaths due to falls ~ http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreation...s/nursing.html

    I remember parsing the "death by fall" data from 2006, they use all these codes, which you can google and learning that about 450ish? die from falling out of BED, yeah, BED, every year.

    Putting body counts into perspective is useful for me. It allows me to ascertain my own risk factors and reprioritize as needed.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
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    Hm. I do not really understand why a sad/surprised response is met with criticism. I too know where the statistics are from and that the Long Island death was from 2008. I have family there I visit often so I happened to read about it in a Long Island paper, as I was less than 60 miles away when it happened. Surprise or disappointment does not necessarily indicate ignorance or hysteria...

    Just because the deaths and injuries are statistically low does not mean that they are something to dismiss. They are very, very avoidable, which is what is striking and upsetting to me. Of secondary concern is how the numbers point to the pushed undercurrent that things and money are more important than the wellbeing of people. This does need to be kept in check through mindfulness because businesses profit from pushing the value of money and their products, but there is no counterbalance inherently present in the market. I don't think anyone promotes the value of money or products "evilly", just that it's a balance that has to be brought back to center by individuals consciously making their own judgment calls about what is really valuable. And I think there are few individuals who, when removed from the "Black Friday" context, would actually consciously, personally physically harm another human to obtain a price cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Wow, so much harumphing and tut-tutting in this thread. Seven deaths and 83 injuries over seven years in a country of 300 million people? I'm sure more people have died in stores over the last seven years of natural causes. Just because someone makes a counter doesn't mean it's an actual thing.
    I'm sure more people die of injury while attempting to fry turkeys or hanging holiday lights, but in general there is little that can be done to predict or prevent that on an overhead level besides public health advertisement. The ladder design engineers or a physicist can't reasonably be present when Dad is trying to position the feet of his too-short ladder on uneven ground and halfway on a patch of ice to reach that last corner, and no one can reasonably be there to force Grandma to read the directions on the new turkey fryer. But with Black Friday, companies can already predict and prevent this, if they choose - not to mention that often it is the employees who are obligated to be present who are maltreated, injured, or killed, not even the shoppers who voluntarily choose to take part in the fray. Plus, there is the lingering notion that Black Friday is geared towards getting gifts for the holidays. It is ironic that a "compassion-geared" day is characterized by chaos and violence - though someone's suggestion to televise Black Friday at major retailers, a la The Hunger Games, gave me a good laugh.

    I am generally not one to tut-tut and harumph at others' chosen paths of action - I wished the people I knew going out shopping on Black Friday and even Thursday night good luck. I went out Black Friday shopping myself, later in the evening, once most people were done for the day. But I also don't feel mindless or petty for sympathizing with or being dismayed by the deaths and injuries, or for shaking my head that people participate in trampling for the sake of saving money on typically non-essential purchases. I think it is an unwise decision in terms of goal and outcome. Moreover, the people hurt might barely make up a significant statistic - and lord knows numbers are constantly manipulated ad-hoc to prove points - but these numbers are almost wholly preventable, and I can't turn a blind eye to that.

  9. #29
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    Better name for site: Black Friday Casualty Report Count.

    That said, @skylights makes the case for statistical criticisms missing an important point.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Hm. I do not really understand why a sad/surprised response is met with criticism. I too know where the statistics are from and that the Long Island death was from 2008. I have family there and I read about it in a Long Island paper because I was less than 100 miles away when it happened.

    Just because the deaths and injuries are statistically low does not mean that they are something to dismiss. They are so completely avoidable. Of secondary concern is how the numbers point to the undercurrent that things and money are more important than the wellbeing of people.
    Because the stats in that counter are deceptive, they're meant to shock and show Black Friday as deadly. Let's see what the deaths are:

    2013 Teen returning home from Black Friday shopping fell asleep at wheel, killed in wreck
    2012 Father charged in crash that killed daughters after Black Friday shopping


    Explain how a car accidents fit this argument:

    Just because the deaths and injuries are statistically low does not mean that they are something to dismiss. They are so completely avoidable. Of secondary concern is how the numbers point to the undercurrent that things and money are more important than the wellbeing of people.
    Adding those statistics into that counter diminishes the validity of the entire count.

    2011 Black Friday: Target Shoppers Step Over Walter Vance As He Collapses, Dies

    The man had a heart condition and collapsed, some shoppers ignored him, however six nurses shopping in the store performed CPR until paramedics arrived. Exactly how is that death "so completely avoidable"?

    2008 Southern California Toys 'R' Us Shooting Leaves Two Dead

    Scary, and it's possible the amount of shoppers around caused it to escalate because there was no quick escape, however it wasn't over toys, it was gang related, so again how does this fit into the predictable or avoidable category.

    2008 Worker dies at Long Island Wal-Mart after being trampled in Black Friday stampede

    This death is diminished by including all the other ones.

    There is a similar pattern with the injuries. It's ingenious. If you want to talk about how the hype leads to dangerous situations then go ahead, but that link does the topic a disservice so the fact it's met criticism should not be a surprise.

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