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  1. #41
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    @Mole: At first you said that the US had forgotten about Australia; now you say that the US oppresses and exploits Australia.

    Oh well, whatever. As you please.
    I am saying that like any nation the USA looks after its own national interest first.

    But because we refuse to defend ourselves, we are not looking after our own national interest.

    No one expects the national interest of Australia and the national interest of the USA to be the same. And yet we have abrogated our national interest.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    My only point was that making prostitution ILLEGAL ALWAYS punishes the prostitutes--even if they say it doesn't on paper. It didn't fix anything in the US to have it illegal. It won't fix anything in France.
    Yes, this is true, making prostitution illegal punishes the prostitutes and supports the men who buy the bodies of women.

    This is why we have legalised prostitution into sex work, with health and safety regulations, and tax.

    And it is important to realise the French Bill does not punish sex workers but rather the men who buy the bodies of women.

    Let me say again strongly, the French Bill does not make sex work illegal.

  3. #43
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, this is true, making prostitution illegal punishes the prostitutes and supports the men who buy the bodies of women.

    This is why we have legalised prostitution into sex work, with health and safety regulations, and tax.

    And it is important to realise the French Bill does not punish sex workers but rather the men who buy the bodies of women.

    Let me say again strongly, the French Bill does not make sex work illegal.
    And again, I say, that when you make prostitution illegal it hurts the prostitutes no matter what. Making "Sex work" legal but not prostitution is just baloney. How is it legal to have a sex working job but it is illegal to have clients who pay for sex? It's backwards stuff. And what will this bill do to reduce the amount of sex slaves and human traffickers in the country? It has not reduced our numbers, and I don't think it will make a major impact on France's numbers either.

    This is why we have legalised prostitution into sex work, with health and safety regulations, and tax.
    The bill you posted goes in the opposite direction of this.
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  4. #44
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    I am not taking a position on whether this is a good or bad bill. But I am a bit disturbed by how many Americans here seem to be reducing the issue to a boolean option of banning or not banning prostitution. There is a huge difference between a bill that punishes prostitutes and clients, only prostitutes, or only clients. And even if the whole thing were legal, there are still issues of how it is regulated as a legal activity.

    These things matter. It's not just on or off.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    And again, I say, that when you make prostitution illegal it hurts the prostitutes no matter what. Making "Sex work" legal but not prostitution is just baloney. How is it legal to have a sex working job but it is illegal to have clients who pay for sex? It's backwards stuff. And what will this bill do to reduce the amount of sex slaves and human traffickers in the country? It has not reduced our numbers, and I don't think it will make a major impact on France's numbers either.

    The bill you posted goes in the opposite direction of this.
    Perhaps you haven't grasped that this is a Bill to change the power relationship of women and men.

    The ramifications of this Bill will take a long time to play out, and the final result is unknown.

    What we do know is this Bill advances the values of the Enlightenment: freedom and equality.

    We stick with our values and let the chips fall where they may.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Perhaps you haven't grasped that this is a Bill to change the power relationship of women and men.

    The ramifications of this Bill will take a long time to play out, and the final result is unknown.

    What we do know is this Bill advances the values of the Enlightenment: freedom and equality.

    We stick with our values and let the chips fall where they may.
    Rarely are things done now-a-days for the sake of enlightenment. Especially not in politics.

    The time they spent on this bill, and the energy and money used in it, they could have used to make serious strides in the more serious issues of slavery and human trafficking.

    Trust.. My personal opinion is that nothing good can come of selling your body. But I am also on a personal moral ground when I say that--some people may have no issues with it at all. In fact, it could be argued that this bill is just hating on the (majority party) men while not picking at all on the women committing the same act. Why would there be so much emphasis on the men and none at all on the women? There is a power relationship because sex is a commodity. It has been since the beginning of anything that has ever had sex. That won't change with making prostitution illegal. It is still a commodity--and now it's a black market commodity. There is a sense of women having power in these dynamics too. I know that there are a LOT of issues that stem from this trade and business... but there are many issues that stem from alcohol, and cigarettes, and other commodities. And those are all still legal despite deaths, broken families, and other issues.

    The bigger issues that prostitution causes are not addressed by this bill. And so it is not an enlightened bill trying to strive for the rights of women, or men for that matter since there are definitely male prostitutes. It is a band-aid attempt to look progressive to other nations. It is taking away a commodity that people have been using to their advantage--both women and men. It does not create a safer climate for prostitutes--it eliminates the safety entirely. No one can admit to going to a prostitute if it's an illegal trade. No one can say they're a prostitute legally, because the payment for sex is illegal. They'll effectively make a larger black market for themselves, and every time something goes off the legal radars, there's a source of untraceable income for thugs and perverts to profit off of...
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Rarely are things done now-a-days for the sake of enlightenment. Especially not in politics.

    The time they spent on this bill, and the energy and money used in it, they could have used to make serious strides in the more serious issues of slavery and human trafficking.

    Trust.. My personal opinion is that nothing good can come of selling your body. But I am also on a personal moral ground when I say that--some people may have no issues with it at all. In fact, it could be argued that this bill is just hating on the (majority party) men while not picking at all on the women committing the same act. Why would there be so much emphasis on the men and none at all on the women? There is a power relationship because sex is a commodity. It has been since the beginning of anything that has ever had sex. That won't change with making prostitution illegal. It is still a commodity--and now it's a black market commodity. There is a sense of women having power in these dynamics too. I know that there are a LOT of issues that stem from this trade and business... but there are many issues that stem from alcohol, and cigarettes, and other commodities. And those are all still legal despite deaths, broken families, and other issues.

    The bigger issues that prostitution causes are not addressed by this bill. And so it is not an enlightened bill trying to strive for the rights of women, or men for that matter since there are definitely male prostitutes. It is a band-aid attempt to look progressive to other nations. It is taking away a commodity that people have been using to their advantage--both women and men. It does not create a safer climate for prostitutes--it eliminates the safety entirely. No one can admit to going to a prostitute if it's an illegal trade. No one can say they're a prostitute legally, because the payment for sex is illegal. They'll effectively make a larger black market for themselves, and every time something goes off the legal radars, there's a source of untraceable income for thugs and perverts to profit off of...
    These kind of arguments are like those made to defend institutional slavery.

    So when we were changing the power relationship between slave owners and slaves, slave owners, both men and women, fought to retain their power.

    No one gives up power voluntarily, not slave owners or men or their female supporters.

  8. #48
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    These kind of arguments are like those made to defend institutional slavery.

    So when we were changing the power relationship between slave owners and slaves, slave owners, both men and women, fought to retain their power.

    No one gives up power voluntarily, not slave owners or men or their female supporters.
    It isn't about men and women. It isn't about helping those women in shitty situations. The bill isn't about saving people anymore than seat belt laws were made to save lives. It's a facade. A band-aid measure to a complex problem. It's easier to just ban things that are perfectly fine when done right than it is to go after the actual fucks abusing others. And I believe the bill will make prostitutes less likely to come forward--or for men noticing prostitutes are held against their will to come forward.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The bill isn't about saving people anymore than seat belt laws were made to save lives. It's a facade.
    Gosh, we introduced compulsory seat belts some time ago and the facts are in. Compulsory seat belts have already saved lots of lives.

    We expect those with a vested interest in men's power over women to fight to keep the power of men to buy the bodies of women.

    And we expect women who benefit, materially or psychologically, from the power of men, to also fight to maintain the power of men to buy the bodies of women.

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