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  1. #21
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    At the same time, it seems people outside of Europe have a misconception (especially here in the US) that European countries are really progressive.. and they really are not. I like France, a lot.. but I'm not going to pretend they are something they are not. And progressive just isn't a French trait for the country.
    I agree with Kyuuei's main point about American perceptions of what France's and by extension, Western Europe is "really" like.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I agree with Kyuuei's main point about American perceptions of what France's and by extension, Western Europe is "really" like.
    And therefore, since your opinions are not justified and thoroughly explained, it's my right to laugh at it without justifying why.

    At least, if both of you had any notion of international politics past the usual blind display of American chauvinism, you would know that social progressivism is an ideology historically linked with what we call the Center Left and the Welfare state.
    Social democratism is virtually non existent (or at least, not represented) within the current US political system. Bernie Sanders would be considered rather mainstream (a centrist) in any other Western country but the US.
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  3. #23
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    And therefore, since your opinions are not justified and thoroughly explained, it's my right to laugh at it without justifying why.

    At least, if both of you had any notion of international politics past the usual blind display of American chauvinism, you would know that social progressivism is an ideology historically linked with what we call the Center Left and the Welfare state.
    Social democratism is virtually non existent (or at least, not represented) within the current US political system. Bernie Sanders would be considered rather mainstream (a centrist) in any other Western country but the US.
    Touche!
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Considering I'm currently trying to learn French in the hopes of working in the country at some point in time, my aim isn't to beat up France. At the same time, it seems people outside of Europe have a misconception (especially here in the US) that European countries are really progressive.. and they really are not. I like France, a lot.. but I'm not going to pretend they are something they are not. And progressive just isn't a French trait for the country.
    The USA is a backward country that keeps telling us it is the best democracy in the world.

    And not only, they tell us, is the USA the best country in the world, but it has the best sense of humour.

  5. #25
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    And therefore, since your opinions are not justified and thoroughly explained, it's my right to laugh at it without justifying why.

    At least, if both of you had any notion of international politics past the usual blind display of American chauvinism, you would know that social progressivism is an ideology historically linked with what we call the Center Left and the Welfare state.
    Social democratism is virtually non existent (or at least, not represented) within the current US political system. Bernie Sanders would be considered rather mainstream (a centrist) in any other Western country but the US.
    Which is precisely why we have this misconception. We feel like we're very conservative in comparison to a lot of Europe--and in some ways we are--but with a handful of exceptions like Sweden that just continues to trail blaze their own path, that feeling leaks into all aspects of life. We mistakenly think that things are magically better in Europe because the things that follow those 'welfare states' tend to be the ideals that are progressive. This.. just really isn't the case. While there is progression in general, there are still just as many bumpy roads and faults over there. The grass is still grass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The USA is a backward country that keeps telling us it is the best democracy in the world.

    And not only, they tell us, is the USA the best country in the world, but it has the best sense of humour.
    Everyone who likes their home feels like it is the best home ever. I feel like that's a bit of child hood that never leaves people.
    Yeah, we know, you hate the US and all of it's arrogance and pride and overly patriotic shit. You find every opportunity to slip that "Fuck you 'murica" into your posts as possible. We get it.
    But America has some great merits to it regardless of how you personally feel about it and its inhabitants' enthusiasm and mindsets.

    There is a reason we have a complete influx of au pairs from France here in Houston, TX that don't want to leave the country and go back to France. There is a reason people want to come here still. Despite all the flaws and negativity you see, we still have a lot to offer the rest of the world. Arrogance is ugly on anyone, but I also feel it is subjective what people consider to be arrogant in the first place. We're far too arrogant for you--but I bet Australia is pretty arrogant in comparison to Japanese culture. It's all relative. So, let's lay off the "Eff Murica" stuff and focus on the OP.

    It's historical to make prostitution illegal, yeah. But it was historical for Alabama to make interracial marriage legal in 2003, and they'd been doing it for ages before it was ever legal. Prostitution will not stop in France just because they passed a bill against it--I dare say it will not even slow--and it will not do much in the way of controlling human trafficking. In fact, I fear it will have the opposite effect. Putting a ban of any sort on anything tends to create a black market. I'm not saying that I at all agree with prostitution.. but that's just how it is.

    Still, to put some positive spirit in the mix:

    http://www.thelocal.fr/20131127/pros...-business-deal

    Some pretty progressive thinking that pretty much sums up how I feel about the trade personally:

    "This has been controversial in France, but it’s really very simple. It is absolutely unacceptable in a democratic society that one human being should be allowed to buy another human being’s body.

    "There is no 'double standard' or hypocrisy in criminalizing the purchase of sex, while not criminalizing prostitutes. This is not a business arrangement like any other, it is always an act of violence, and it’s completely perverse to think of a human body as a product.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    You find every opportunity to slip that "Fuck you 'murica" into your posts as possible. We get it.
    Our connection with the USA is through the ANZUS military treaty.

    And when we asked your President, John F. Kennedy, in the Oval Office, how committed the USA was to the ANZUS treaty, he replied to our face that the American people had forgotten it.

  7. #27
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Our connection with the USA is through the ANZUS military treaty.

    And when we asked your President, John F. Kennedy, in the Oval Office, how committed the USA was to the ANZUS treaty, he replied to our face that the American people had forgotten it.
    I don't know if you noticed.. but it is human nature to forget history. We have to make active effort to remember the things from our past. And, just like some people hate studying math despite its importance, many people dislike studying history of any sort--regardless of its importance. That isn't an American thing. Everyone forgets their own history.
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  8. #28
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    An historic French bill? I half-expected this thread to be about Eliza Doolittle.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Our connection with the USA is through the ANZUS military treaty.

    And when we asked your President, John F. Kennedy, in the Oval Office, how committed the USA was to the ANZUS treaty, he replied to our face that the American people had forgotten it.
    Maybe that was the case in Kennedy's day. But in October 1976 I floated down with the US Seventh Fleet from South Korea to Australia and took part in Exercise Kangaroo II under the auspices of ANZUS.

    Kangaroo II ran Oct 21-30, 1976, and involved more than 32,000 troops from the US, Australia, and New Zealand. They said it was the largest amphibious exercise in Australia since WWII. My unit did an amphibious landing, camped in the outback for a week or so, and then at the end of the exercise the Seventh Fleet fanned out for liberty calls all over Australia. My unit was given two weeks of shore leave in Brisbane.

    Since then they conducted more Kangaroos every couple of years, then the Crocodile series of exercises, and currently they are conducting Exercise Talisman Saber on a regular basis.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Talisman_Saber

    New Zealand pulled out of ANZUS back in the 90s because it didn't want nuclear-powered or nuclear-armed ships docking at its ports; I remember that it caused a big stir in the US press because ANZUS was such a long-standing arrangement and such a cornerstone of US policy in the Pacific. But even with NZ out of the picture, the ANZUS treaty itself remains in force today, and military relations between the US and Australia are still alive and well.

    Just saying.

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    Not to belabor the point about ANZUS, but here is some material from the history log of the USS Enterprise (nuclear-powered aircraft carrier), as it sailed in support of Kangaroo II in 1976:

    Kangaroo II began with a “bang” with the ship commencing 55 hours of continuous air strikes and defensive operations against the RAAF Williamtown target complex, on 12 October 1976. The Australians “enlivened” the 600-mile transit northward toward the Rockhampton area with “continual harassment,” aircrews flying from Enterprise responding with “equal vigor.”

    [...]

    The final phase of Kangaroo II consisted of operations designed to support the task force as it reinforced an amphibious landing, concluding with a conference on board Australian carrier HMAS Melbourne on 25 October 1976. Four days later, hundreds of pleasure boats met Enterprise at the mouth of the Derwent River, escorting her to her anchorage at Hobart, Tasmania. In addition to 1,200 visitors in organized tours during the week long stay (29 October–4 November 1976), “about 40,000 visitors” waited long hours to clamor on board the 200-seat ferry boats, despite wind and rain, to see the carrier, referring to her as “Tasmania’s fifth largest city.” Among the visitors to the ship were Governor-General of Australia Sir John R. Kerr, Prime Minister Malcom Frazer, Premier W.A. Nielson of Tasmania, Lord Mayor Douglas R. Plaister of, Hobart, U.S. Ambassador to Australia James W. Hargrove, Captain Benjamin T. Sutherlin, U.S. Naval Attaché, as well as Julie A. Ismay, Miss Australia 1976 and Miss Tasmania 1975. The “extraordinary reception given to Enterprise… defies description,” was the summation of her Command History Report, the consensus of the crew being that “Hobart was the best liberty port west of Alameda.” Getting underway past shores thronged with waving crowds on 5 November, the crew responded to the outpouring of hospitality by the Australians by donating $10,000 to local charity, sent to Lord Mayor Plaister.

    http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/e4...rise-viiid.htm

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