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  1. #31

  2. #32
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    http://youtu.be/tcXU7G6zhjU

    ^ Whale shows appreciation for being freed from nets.

    There's also been evidence of elephants grieving. Only other species, other than humans, shown to have a ritual around death. A fallen matriarch, was surrounded by her herd, with the youngsters screaming, and then all falling into silence. Then, they covered her with branches, and didn't leave her burial ground for two days (except for food and water), surrounding it in silence, until moving on, after two days. They are highly altruistic too (social animals, herd animals).

    A working elephant in India refused to lower one of the logs it was carrying that day. When the elephant trainer walked in front of her to see why she was not cooperating, he found a dog sleeping in the hole in which she was to drop her log. She would not lower the timber until the dog had moved out of danger.

    http://www.elephantsforever.co.za/el...-altruism.html

    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet, Shakespeare (not a comment on the supernatural)

  3. #33
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Tell that to the chimpansee conscious enough to look in the mirror and know it is them looking back and in fact admiring what they see, playing with lipstick and removing the coloured dot from their forehead that the scientist put there.

    Tell it to the elephants seeking out and killing humans and only humans after watching their moms slaughtered by our 'conscious' species when they were young over a decade ago.

    Tell it to the gorilla Koko who knew 150 signs in sign language and managed to communicate that she would like something to take care of, got a kitten, loved it, nurtured it and expressed sadness via her signs and bodylanguage when it tragically died.

    Conscious species, my ass.

    Ive honestly never hears this theory before and i aint a neurologist but i do know that the animal behaviour sector has yet to make such radical claims and that this subject is bei g researched properly finally. Even if what you state is true, the conclusion of what that means seems to fly in the face of what others in that field are finding from what ive read. Also, that answer would supposey settle the big question in that field going on atm. Consdering the debate is still going, i doubt the results and what they mean are that straightforward.

    At this point, we just dont know how the emotional response in a particular species other than our own works. All we know is that there is far more to it than was originally presumed.
    Mate, mate, all we had to do was count the neurons. We have 86 billion. No other animal comes even close.

    It was a shock to discover the Earth went round the Sun, and it is a shock to discover that homo sapiens is the only animal with enough neurons to be conscious.

  4. #34
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    This is blatantly wrong. Evidence does not back you up.

    You can hold on to antiquated arguments like anthropomorphism, but, by refusing to acknowledge the mass body of research and progress in this field, you are essentially staying in the dark, and believing it to be Enlightenment. You are practicing speciesism.

    One of the substantial argument for years, to differentiate humans from other species have been the presence of spindle neurons, in our brains. Which are highly specialized cells which are thought to process emotions and allow us to feel love and grief. These cells are located in the area of the brain related to empathy, speech, intuition and social organization. Then, it was found that, not only humans had these, but the other great apes did too. But, it was believed that no other species did.

    And, then, recent evidence basically crushed this, by finding that cetacean intelligence is also the result of spindle cells. I.e., whales, dolphins, etc, also have spindle neurons.

    What's more: these spindle cells have been a feature of the cetacean species longer than our species....

    AND........
    proportionally (meaning, taking body sizes into consideration), they have THREE TIMES as many spindle cells in their brain, than homo sapiens.

    So, no, your argument has no validity.

    Edit, to add: Oh! And elephants, too.
    Oh please, you are not up with the latest in neurology. Neurologists have counted the neurons, and we have vastly more than any other animal, including other primates. And in particular we have vastly more in our prefrontal cortex.

    Of course you are free to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden or that cute animals are conscious.

  5. #35
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    @lowtech redneck did I get it right? I wasn't 100% sure what happened. I can't brain, I has the dumb today.
    Heh, that was my problem.

    But yeah, you got it right.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Oh please, you are not up with the latest in neurology. Neurologists have counted the neurons, and we have vastly more than any other animal, including other primates. And in particular we have vastly more in our prefrontal cortex.

    Of course you are free to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden or that cute animals are conscious.
    Are you aiming to point out the obvious? That no other species has a brain like humans? If so, I don't get your exercise in redundancy.

    If your argument is aiming to be a narrow, blind, dichotomy, where consciousness = greatest number of neurons and all other beings that don't win the neurons count race are therefore not conscious/sentient, well, that's laugably shortsighted. And speciest.

    Prefrontal cortex allows us complexity of executive functions. So what?

    Are animals sentient? You make no case against this. Consciousness? Aware of self as different from others? Show me evidence that this is the privilege of only humans and no other animals.

    We are "special" not simply because of our # of neurons. This is highly simplistic. There is still no consensus in neuroscience about what EXACTLY makes our brain special. But, compared to other animals, it clearly is special.

    That, however, does not negate that certain other species can feel emotions, have self-awareness, or social consciousness. It is not an all or nothing.

    You have subjectively and arbitrarily put a value on this. By that argument, like purplchknz said, we should eat infants, and the severely mentally handicapped ( because they are far less sentient than a dog).

    You have put a subjective value that just because no other species has a brain like ours, means that they are incapable of any and all, of the experience and feelings we have as humans. And that studying it will ALWAYS be a bias - anthropomorphism. As if that's a ugly word for the irrational. It's not about projecting humanness/ human traits on animals ( how arrogant), but about finding commonalities. Humans are not the only ones to feel happiness or sadness. How we evaluate that in other species should be held up to scrutiny, yes, but to sweep it all away as rubbish because of anthropomorphism, is quite irrational, itself.

    You failing to acknowledge this because of your narrow view of what counts as consciousness is irrelevant.

    I haven't seen your name in any neuroscience journals making a breakthrough because you've finally, and conclusively, pinpointed what part and/or feature of our brain is responsible for making our brain "special". Mentally more flexible than others.

    Thanks, Mole (whose whole identity here, on this site, ironically revolves around anthropomorphisizing animals).

  7. #37
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    Thanks, Mole (whose whole identity here, on this site, ironically revolves around anthropomorphisizing animals).
    Moles of course are different. Of course Moles are conscious. Just look at me: I am conscious. The Great Mole created the universe with a special place naturally for Moles created in His image and likeness. This is going to come as a great shock to homo sapiens to discover, when they enter heaven, it is full of Moles, conscious each and everyone of us. Whoopee!

  8. #38
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Moles of course are different. Of course Moles are conscious. Just look at me: I am conscious. The Great Mole created the universe with a special place naturally for Moles created in His image and likeness. This is going to come as a great shock to homo sapiens to discover, when they enter heaven, it is full of Moles, conscious each and everyone of us. Whoopee!
    Mole's sarcasm, what a gaping hole.

    PS- anthropomizing nature and its creation as "god", point taken and I agree that humanity does this, but it is quite a stretch to make from animals and consciousness. How sophistic of you. / not surprised

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    Mole's sarcasm, what a gaping hole.
    Please! Moles are never sarcastic, we are witty and amusing.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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