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  1. #11
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Who says we want equality for all?
    The values of the West are freedom and equality, and these derive largely from the European Enlightenment.

    By contrast the values of Islam are submission and discrimination.

    So the West flies the flag of equality as encoded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  2. #12
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    C'mon this is the Romanticization of animals.

    This is part of the New Age which is part of the Romantic Movement which is a reaction against the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries.

    The Romantic movement as well as rejecting evidence and reason, freedom and equality, do it in the name of wish fulfullment.

    The slogan of the New Age Romantic Movement is, if it feels good do it. But if it feels good, it doesn't mean it is true or even good.

    And soon we have Doctor Feelgood knocking on our door with something to help us feel good.
    Actually, it is the study of a field previously ignored in a scientific manner by ethologists and wildlife biologists. It is quite fascinating to see them finally put the old prejudice aside for openminded curiosity.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Actually, it is the study of a field previously ignored in a scientific manner by ethologists and wildlife biologists. It is quite fascinating to see them finally put the old prejudice aside for openminded curiosity.
    When anyone says, "openminded", we can say goodbye to evidence and reason.

  4. #14
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The values of the West are freedom and equality, and these derive largely from the European Enlightenment.

    By contrast the values of Islam are submission and discrimination.

    So the West flies the flag of equality as encoded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
    The values of the West are not freedom and equality, and Islam isnt about discimination at its base. Equality isnt a creation of the enlightenment. It is a Christian notion. It always has been. The philosophers of the enlightenment defended equality because many of them where Christian. Also you're creating a narrow, false paradigm of "Islam vs the West" which has nothing to do with this discussion or with what I wrote.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    The values of the West are not freedom and equality, and Islam isnt about discimination at its base. Equality isnt a creation of the enlightenment. It is a Christian notion. It always has been. The philosophers of the enlightenment defended equality because many of them where Christian. Also you're creating a narrow, false paradigm of "Islam vs the West" which has nothing to do with this discussion or with what I wrote.
    Oh come on, the New Testament in at least four places strongly endorses institutional slavery, for instance -

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


    It wasn't until the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries that the West embraced the value of universal equality and christianity fought the Enlightenment every step of the way.

  6. #16
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Oh come on, the New Testament in at least four places strongly endorses institutional slavery, for instance -

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


    It wasn't until the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries that the West embraced the value of universal equality and christianity fought the Enlightenment every step of the way.
    Thats not endorsing the institution of slavery, simply Paul telling people to respect the social order even if it is unjust(why would he mention it in such a manner if it was just in his eyes?)

    The idea of equality predates the enlightenment, more from the New Testament:

    Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

    And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
    (Acts 4:34-35, King James Version)

    The first Christian community in Jerusalem were believed to be linked to the Jewish sect of the Esseniens, who were communists, they shared all their goods. That seems pretty equalitarian to me.

    Seems liek you're confusing equality with human rights. The enlightenment took the monotheistic idea of equality and made into one of the many human rights they defended, the idea of human right was new, not the idea of equality.

  7. #17
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    Oh I saw a video about a turkey sanctuary in california. The sanctuary was in california i was here not in california and was watching the video. and they were talking about turkey's and I was like fuck I like to eat turkey on thanksgiving (just the dark meat) but if they have feelings it's not fair to just eat them. So i figured if i ate my friends as well it be more justified.
    Ok...THIS...I understand...

    Oh I saw a video about a turkey sanctuary in california. The sanctuary was in california i was here not in california and was watching the video. and they were talking about turkey's and I was like fuck I like to eat turkey on thanksgiving (just the dark meat) but if they have feelings it's not fair to just eat them.
    Really, I do, I understand it. It's this very line of reasoning that many of my vegan/vegetarian friends refuse to eat meat and I don't fault them for it. I don't agree with it, but I don't fault them for it.

    What I do NOT understand though...is how the above logically follows to this...

    So i figured if i ate my friends as well it be more justified.
    This is baffling me as this seems like a pretty big leap of reasoning to make. Help?

    ETA: After chatting with the lovely @Amargith is this subject, I've come to the conclusion that my objection to this line of thought is not in it's logic, but in it's moral implications. I understand the reasoning, I just feel like you'd have to be a sociopath to agree with it.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  8. #18
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    do you think I am a sociopath?

  9. #19
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    do you think I am a sociopath?
    I've had people sent me messages and such explaining how Fi works and such...

    Long story short: No, I don't think you're a sociopath. But I do very much disagree with the idea you're presenting here
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  10. #20
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I've had people sent me messages and such explaining how Fi works and such...

    Long story short: No, I don't think you're a sociopath. But I do very much disagree with the idea you're presenting here
    that's fine.

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