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  1. #11
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    Pass really big laws without getting buy in from half the country.... even when said buy in is necessary for the law to have a chance of working.

  2. #12
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    They are too much like Republicans.

    Also this:
    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    Too willing to compromise their beliefs for money, power or popularity. But that's all politicians.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #13
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    How far back do you want to go?

    1. FDR, a Democrat, put over a hundred thousand innocent Japanese Americans in internment camps in WW2 without due process. Over 60,000 of those were children. Not a single Democrat in Congress stood up to him.

    2. LBJ escalated the Vietnam war and he wasted trillions in his war against poverty, without much success.

    3. We Republicans blame the Democrats for creating a state of dependency in many Americans, most notably in the African American and Native American communities. You can see a direct correlation between the rise in government dependency and the illegitimacy rate. In 1960, only 22% of black births were out of wedlock; today it's over 70%.

    4. Democrats love regulations and growing government. In last night's John Stossel program on Fox News, he brought up the fact that a magician needs a license to own a pet rabbit and government officials can enter the home of the magician any time to inspect the conditions. You need a license to cut hair, to drive a cab, to run a lemonade stand. All of these regulations kill jobs and sap motivation.

    5. Democrats love to spend and they can't stop spending. Obama promised to cut the budget deficit in half after his first term. Instead, he tripled it. He promised to go through the budget line by line to weed out waste and inefficiencies. Instead, he gave billions to failed companies like Solyndra, Abound Solar, A123, etc. The Obamacare act creates 153 new bureaucracies and adds 12,000 more IRS agents.

    6. Democrats love to raise taxes. Obama promised that no one making less than $250,000 would see his taxes increased, but Obamacare is one big tax on the millenials.

    7. Democrats don't like to give people options. I would like to opt out of Social Security, Medicare, and Obamacare. I would like the ability to buy a rabbit without having to purchase a $40 license. I would like to buy a 100 watt light bulb or a 16 oz soda, but Democrats know what's best for you.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #14
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kquirk View Post
    The Democrats in power, like the Republicans, only care about winning elections and getting more money/power for themselves and not about fixing anything.
    This. The party doesn't have perspective or unfettering of chains because it is afraid of losing power, so it bows its head to mediocrity. It's not bad intentions but it's the paradox that it's hard to get anything done without support, and it's hard to get support when you're out doing things.

  5. #15
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    The do not have a clear message about what they want to do. While Republican Party have simple coherent messages such as low tax and small government; does any one actually know what Democrats believe in? For example, do they actually have a plan to end the deficit ?Or end welfare dependency? Even saving the manufacturing industry?

    While once they may have been the party of average man, they are now the party of billionaires. Way too in the pocket to big donors. For a party which claims to be the champion of the poor, why do they have more super rich supporters than the Republican Party?

    More interested in engaging in divisive social policy and crony capitalism rather than trying to help the average middle American striver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  6. #16
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not good at coming up with solutions that work in the real world.
    Do you mean that they don’t have many actual plans, or do you mean that they have plans but they don’t work in the real world? And if the latter, can you give me an example of a plan (or several) they had that failed?

    Overly rely on Peter to pay Paul.
    I’m not sure if you mean that they borrow too much money or that they take too much taxes from the rich for social programs that help the poor. I agree with the first one but not the second one.

    Only have a few issues where they are really in line with middle America.
    Do you mean what the middle class’s opinion is on average, or do you mean they’re not doing what’s best for the middle class (if these are two separate things)?

    @Rail Tracer

    Thanks for all this—there’s lots of good stuff here! I won’t pretend that I have the historical knowledge of this that you do, but that’s partly why I started this thread is to learn.

    Depends. In a historical standpoint, the current Democratic Party is the remnants of the New Deal Coalition. The New Deal Coalition was very broad based, in fact, most everyone were ok with it. The so called "liberal" part of the Democratic party kept pushing through Civil Rights legislation. If we were to compare how we are going today compared to how we were in the 60's... we went towards the liberal side while today, we are much more into the conservative part of the politics today (quite far.. in my view.) Nixon, and succeeding Republicans saw, through the Southern Strategy, that the Civil Rights Era was alienating a lot of people. This is especially the case with Southern Democrats, who saw the whole Civil Rights issue in disdain, riots that occurred during the 60's and 70's also caused a lot of people to...say... feel betrayed because a lot of the programs, like the Great Society, was really trying to lift people up to a certain standard, in general.
    Based on this, it seems like you’re saying that the Democratic party of today is very broad-based compared to the Republican platform because its modern foundation is not based on policies involving governing but more on social policies (the Civil Rights movement). That sounds very similar to today, with Democrats focusing on things like the environment, healthcare reform, and gay rights, and the Republicans focusing on things like taxes and small government.

    For the bold, can you explain this a little more? It sounds like you’re saying that in the 60s, both parties were more liberal (with Democrats being ultra-liberal), but today they’re both more conservative (with the Republicans just being ultra-conservative).

    Once issues, like abortion popped up in the 1960's, religion got pushed into the fray (this is why we see such a strong presence in the religious right.) And you see a lot of people who are anti-abortion on the right and pro-choice on the left. Pre-60's religion wasn't particularly an issue unless you were Catholic.
    Well, religious values didn’t really start to get challenged until then, so I can see that that would cause the religious to feel threatened by this and have a backlash. And today’s America has the strongest presence of non-religious people ever, so it makes sense that fundamentalists would be supported enough to get elected in all these numbers. (I just had a lightbulb moment about that reading your post because that is something that has baffled me.)

    As for the flaws of the Democratic Party, because it is the remnants of the New Deal Coalition, it is very broad based. It is not as tight-knit as the Republican Party. If you look at graphs between the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party and the more conservative part of the Republican Party, the progressive wing is pretty scattered, the conservative... not so much.
    Republicans as a whole are definitely more hard-hitting than the Democrats. Even a casual glance at politics will show you that.

    The whole issue of Peter Pay Paul is really, a reaction to the 1960's era..... action. Both Democrats, and Republicans saw that being paid an exceedingly amount compared to your workers was very shameful. Most people that were rich were paid about 20 times more than the average of the workers since the very early in America, today, the CEO-average worker pay is closer to 200:1. The 1960's Era, again, sort of created this sort of backlash that people are "taking money from people that earn it" when in fact, there are many programs that affects people of all classes, it is just easier to look at the average/dependent worker because it affects more people. Taxes in the 1930's were close to 75%, that is how much the richer people, back then, thought how shameful it was to be exceedingly rich. Today, it is closer to 35%... and in some cases (with tax breaks and bills that are handed out to companies) it can go even lower.
    I’ve read this a couple times, but I think I’m missing what happened in the 60s. In the 60s, were there high taxes still for the rich, or was this when taxes for the rich were pretty low?

    Anyhow, a lot of fluff, but I would rather talk about historical reasons why the groups tends to be the way they are today.
    Nah, thanks for the info—it’s interesting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    The do not have a clear message about what they want to do. While Republican Party have simple coherent messages such as low tax and small government; does any one actually know what Democrats believe in? For example, do they actually have a plan to end the deficit ?Or end welfare dependency? Even saving the manufacturing industry?
    Good point. As someone who (relatively) just started looking at all this, I’m still trying to nail down the Democrats’ governmental theories, while as you said the Republicans’ governmental ideas are pretty clear. And not having a clear plan in that sense isn’t the best for getting shit done. Both sides have pretty clear social stances, though, which does matter.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    Based on this, it seems like you’re saying that the Democratic party of today is very broad-based compared to the Republican platform because its modern foundation is not based on policies involving governing but more on social policies (the Civil Rights movement). That sounds very similar to today, with Democrats focusing on things like the environment, healthcare reform, and gay rights, and the Republicans focusing on things like taxes and small government.

    For the bold, can you explain this a little more? It sounds like you’re saying that in the 60s, both parties were more liberal (with Democrats being ultra-liberal), but today they’re both more conservative (with the Republicans just being ultra-conservative).
    In a sense, yes. The Republicans in the 60's would be considered too moderate(or even liberal) compared to the liberals of today. That is because FDR's New Deal Coalition was so strong, that most Republicans were afraid that they would be reduced to nothingness if they have gone too conservative. Eisenhower once said that (paraphrasing) anybody who were going to go against social security or unemployment insurance, labor laws, or farm programs... that person will not hear of that party ever again. That was how popular the MANY programs that FDR initiated during his presidency.

    The Democrats current foundation is more along the lines of the Civil Rights Era than it was the New Deal Era.

    And that is how the Republican party went with the Southern Strategy, as the Democratic Party had fissures in the New Deal Coalition.


    Well, religious values didn’t really start to get challenged until then, so I can see that that would cause the religious to feel threatened by this and have a backlash. And today’s America has the strongest presence of non-religious people ever, so it makes sense that fundamentalists would be supported enough to get elected in all these numbers. (I just had a lightbulb moment about that reading your post because that is something that has baffled me.)
    Yes, and that is why you see the more outspoken Christians in the Republican Party. But I also think that group has gotten a backlash too, but they are still a strong group.



    Republicans as a whole are definitely more hard-hitting than the Democrats. Even a casual glance at politics will show you that.
    Yes, but that is also its weakness. There is a person from California that has forced, literally, all Republicans to sign a paper stating no new taxes, or some sort. The fact that Republicans are seen as a no compromise sort of group means that they are unwilling to do anything (of course, it isn't always the case.)

    I’ve read this a couple times, but I think I’m missing what happened in the 60s. In the 60s, were there high taxes still for the rich, or was this when taxes for the rich were pretty low?
    In the 60's the rich were still taxed more than it is today. So yes. In the 1930's, it was about 75%, give or take. By the 1960, it dropped to about 55-60%. And today, it is about 35% or less (with everything else added together.)


    Good point. As someone who (relatively) just started looking at all this, I’m still trying to nail down the Democrats’ governmental theories, while as you said the Republicans’ governmental ideas are pretty clear. And not having a clear plan in that sense isn’t the best for getting shit done. Both sides have pretty clear social stances, though, which does matter.
    Of course, the Republican's issue is that they need to broaden their base, as the current political future stands, it is not looking so good if they are going to keep a hard stance on their politics. Many parties in America's past came and go because their issues were too narrow and too uncompromising when other parties had better ideas(ok, it isn't particularly the same when there is only two parties these days.) The whole reason, besides the Great Depression, that the Democrats won in the 1932 election was because of the Republican's view. While many good things happened between Theodore Roosevelt and William Howard Taft's time, there were many things that steered people away from the Republican party. That is, they weren't so welcoming of immigrants or Catholics... which I see a giant parallel in today.

    In my honest opinion, ever since the end of Jimmy Carter's time, the Democratic party hasn't have a really strong coherent message to bring. They do have certain messages that you can decipher, but it is more along the lines of Eisenhower, keep the party going. You can see it in Obama, many people in his party base see him as overly compromising on a lot of issues. You can see it in the tone of the people around here too. The Democrats have an image problem in their economic policies that need to be rearranged to fit properly.

  8. #18
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    Do you mean that they don’t have many actual plans, or do you mean that they have plans but they don’t work in the real world? And if the latter, can you give me an example of a plan (or several) they had that failed?
    The most notable current plan is Obamacare (though the cancelled plans and higher costs are actually a feature rather than a bug, they simply lied about that so that democratic-leaning suburbs wouldn't oppose Obamacare until it was enacted).

    Anyway, both parties are coalitions of interests and ideological movements, with those of the Democrats focusing on expanding and centralizing the role of the government in the pursuit of one goal or another....this puts the Democrats at a disadvantage in terms of party unity, as the various factions must compete against each other at the national level to ensure that their particular interests are enacted at the expense of other party interests, as there is never enough government largesse to satisfy everyone. Furthermore, the ideological wing of the Democratic party (those who for practical purposes view the expansion of government as an end in itself rather than the guarantor of a small set of prioritized interests) is smaller than that of the Republican party, making party cohesion that much more difficult (the rise of the Tea Parties may have closed these disparities for now, but current Republican issues with party unity are about electioneering strategies and personal ambitions more than structural issues).

  9. #19
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    For every ounce of good intention the party has, they have two pounds of mismanagement and dysfunction.

    They have no real foresight beyond idealism, they have a severe lack of follow-through ability when it comes to implementing the legislative successes of their agenda (i.e. Obamacare, Social Security, Medicare, etc), and have no real motivation to do what they say.

    For example, Obama and the Democrats had two years with complete control of the government: no filibuster, no organized Republican Party to have to actually deal with. Republicans were in pre-Tea Party, post-Bush/McCain/Palin disorganization, and were too busy focusing on reorganizing than actually opposing anything. They didn't know what to oppose since they didn't know what their agenda was.

    Did anything get done? No. Obamacare didn't get done. No actual plan when it came to the economy happened, not even the Democrat-preferred Keynesian solutions. No regulation happened. They had a clear shot and didn't even pull the trigger. They didn't even have a loaded gun in their hands. And that was before there was a discussion on gun regulation.

    If you want something to get done, you can't vote for a Democrat. Getting something done is what Republicans do. Unfortunately, what they do is corrupt the system, give welfare to corporations, completely fuck up the tax system with their lovely little "trickle down" bullshit, get fat, and horde their paychecks for twenty years.

    So there's your options. Vote for someone who knows how to get something done (so long as it's screwing you up your ass), or vote for people who want the world to be a better place, but can't even organize a birthday party.
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  10. #20
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    They invented political correctness.

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