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Thread: White Pride

  1. #141
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Throughout most of the country, it is.....at a marginal level compared to other variables.

    In any event, race-based pride and race-based privilege are two different concepts (and fixation on either tends to be less than constructive in practice).

    I wouldn't say mariginal. I'm all for disbanding race centric groups, I think they are ineffective. The only way to get people to treat each other as humans is exposure to one another which doesn't happened when we form social groups based on self-segregation. That being said the idea that whiteness has "marginal" cache seems like a great understatement to me. Just from my experiences in the south and north, with people who did and did not know I was partially African American. There seems to be a lot of stereotypical ideas still in some people towards black people. From all races, even blacks themselves. It's a level of mistrust and underestimation of abilities that I don't see directed towards other groups. I've had people say "I know it's wrong but I still get scared around a group of black guys". Black groups are more likely to be seen as delinquent whereas no one is nervous around Frat bros despite thy demographics history of drug use, rape and violent hazing.

    And of course there studies like in freakanomics where "Jason" gets a job over "Rashad". I think "marginal" is very much an underestimation where whiteness is concerned.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    ????? What is this?

    I can't even....

    I feel like you think that you're throwing roses at the "situation of unrest", when you're really just throwing away the unwanted stems with thorns, because they're too uncomfortable and prickly for your taste. What your hope is, what your personal experience is, DOES NOT negate the reality of racism in USA. How to Make an American Quilt, this is not.
    What?

    I absolutely agree that there is racism present and that it needs to be addressed.

    I am pointing out that there are many forms of discrimination in action, and that doesn't make the impact of racism any less poignant - it makes it more relatable, which is an incredibly powerful tool. Discrimination is not going to be addressed effectively by vilifying the privileged; if anything, that will serve to widen the gap and create more contempt on both sides. After all, no one chooses to be born into privilege any more than they choose to be unprivileged. Most privileged people do not consciously choose to act cruelly. They simply do not see their privilege because they have never known any different. I am not arguing that they are not guilty, but I am arguing that they do not understand what they are doing. They don't see it at all, and until that changes, they will not change their behavior.

    Education, compassion, and direct experience are far more effective in changing people's perspectives. Consider a white person who has never been exposed to racist treatment directed towards themselves, versus a white person who has learned conceptually about racism in school, heard personal accounts from people who have experienced racism personally, and who can empathize on a personal level via other forms of discrimination leveraged specifically against them, perhaps via gender or sexual orientation. The first person is far more likely to feel distanced from the issue. They are unlikely to perceive the systemic factors that create and perpetuate racism in their environment, much less are they likely to feel any intrinsic or extrinsic motivation to attempt to actively address racism. The second person has had much more contact with the issue, understands it on conceptual, interpersonal, and personal levels, and therefore is far more likely to become an ally in working against racism.

    Perhaps the single biggest obstacle to change is a lack of awareness, and one motivator behind white pride movements is a sentiment of being left out. Both of those problems can be addressed by including white people in equality movements, and by systemically pushing education and interaction between groups. The more contact with the issue privileged people have, the more they will associate themselves with equality activism.

    Far from trying to soften the issue, I believe we should be getting people in direct contact with it as much as possible.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    What? I absolutely agree that there is racism present.
    What would make a difference would be a Marshall Plan to the disadvantaged, providing them with education, training and jobs.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    What would make a difference would be a Marshall Plan to the disadvantaged, providing them with education, training and jobs.
    This is true, but it is hard to draw the lines fairly. Does a rich black family deserve help more than a poor white family?

    This is a genuine question. I do not have a good answer.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    This is true, but it is hard to draw the lines fairly. Does a rich black family deserve help more than a poor white family?

    This is a genuine question. I do not have a good answer.
    Gosh, I have the answer. A Marshall Plan of education, training and jobs is directed towards the disadvantaged.

    So the rich of whatever colour are not eligible, but the disadvanted of whatever colour are eligible.

    And as I understand it a significant part of the American disadvanted are Afro-Americans. So a Marshall Plan of education, training and jobs for the disadvantaged would go quite a way to reducing the prejudice against Afro-Americans.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Gosh, I have the answer. A Marshall Plan of education, training and jobs is directed towards the disadvantaged.

    So the rich of whatever colour are not eligible, but the disadvanted of whatever colour are eligible.

    And as I understand it a significant part of the American disadvanted are Afro-Americans. So a Marshall Plan of education, training and jobs for the disadvantaged would go quite a way to reducing the prejudice against Afro-Americans.
    Well yes, but how do you qualify disadvantaged? It sounds like you are basing it off income?

  7. #147
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    @Qrious

    What do you propose the majority of black people in USA unite together as (not speaking of those recently immigrated from the Caribbean, African countries etc - who actually have a cultural identity that's distinct from the blacks who are generations settled in USA)? Culturally speaking? If not by race? Suggestions welcomed, would love to hear it!
    Ideally, they'd just be Americans. Although current circumstances obviously don't allow for that.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Well yes, but how do you qualify disadvantaged? It sounds like you are basing it off income?
    This is a good question, and income would be one indicator of disadvantage. However whether we have a job is also a good indicator of disadvantage.

    And the Marshall Plan would essentially be a massive nationwide creation of jobs for the disadvantaged. And so of course education and training are an essential part of job creation.

  9. #149
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    On paper, it may look okayish; in practice, it is a venue for hateful fools.
    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    Pride over an accident of birth is ridiculous to me. Same with hate over the same.
    Basically these two statements sum my own thoughts up.

    Re: general topic of pride movements:
    I understand the need for a 'pride' movement when you have been taught for so long to be ashamed of what you are, hence gay pride rallies and the like. I can see why it's so refreshing to say, hey, I'm not ashamed of what I am, there's nothing wrong with me, I'm ME. I'm proud of being me. There isn't anything wrong with this aspect of who I am.

    But I think that the next horizon once you move beyond that shame and you've really accepted yourself is...so what? Why is it important?





    Re: white issues, pride, shaming, etc.

    One thing that I really do believe gets brushed under the table is that there is a real trend of anti-white sentiments and stereotyping that I know I've noticed in many circles.

    This isn't always the same as not being aware of privileges and thinking that anyone who is 'calling you out' is just full of it. They might look similar, but they are not the same thing. (sometimes people are so priveleged that they don't realize they are asking for something unfair/unreasonable and I feel that is a real but separate problem than what I'm talking about)

    White people are often stereotyped (at times in ways that I find more offensive/dangerous than others) as:
    - unempathetic
    - un-worldly, not understanding of pragmatic life details
    - greedy, rich from dishonest practices (if you have any amount of money this assumption is magnified)
    - dorky, unathletic

    I absolutely have been profiled as a white male before anything else was really known about me. I think profiling in the sense of 'having a sense of what someone is probably like' is a normal thing to do based on lots of factors, but I'm talking about profiled and not even given a chance to explain what I actually believe, what my experiences are, nothing. Told that I 'didn't know anything' without being given a chance to speak.

    And entire groups of people just bought it.

    That pisses me the fuck off.

    Beyond that, I've heard people with the audacity to claim that I could only possibly be upset about this because of my enormous sense of privilege instead of, hey, that's blatant prejudice and it sucks to be on the receiving end of that no matter who you are.

    People often just brush this under the rug, like it doesn't really happen, like this is some sort of inconvenient detail that doesn't fit into their view of how things are. This makes me angry. Why? I understand that in a larger sense things I go through aren't nearly as bad as other groups, and I'm not looking for a cookie or a pity party. But I do feel like there are groups who are motivated just by an "us vs. them" mentality When people seem to refuse to even acknowledge this sort of prejudice, it makes me doubt how serious they are about combating the prejudices that effect everyone.

    Some prejudices are specific to certain groups, and I understand the need to have those groups to fight for certain causes. But prejudice is a set of thought processes that you can learn to avoid, and unreasonable prejudice against one group can easily turn into unreasonable prejudice against any group.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #150
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Most privileged people do not consciously choose to act cruelly. They simply do not see their privilege because they have never known any different. I am not arguing that they are not guilty, but I am arguing that they do not understand what they are doing. They don't see it at all, and until that changes, they will not change their behavior.

    Education, compassion, and direct experience are far more effective in changing people's perspectives. Consider a white person who has never been exposed to racist treatment directed towards themselves, versus a white person who has learned conceptually about racism in school, heard personal accounts from people who have experienced racism personally, and who can empathize on a personal level via other forms of discrimination leveraged specifically against them, perhaps via gender or sexual orientation. The first person is far more likely to feel distanced from the issue. They are unlikely to perceive the systemic factors that create and perpetuate racism in their environment, much less are they likely to feel any intrinsic or extrinsic motivation to attempt to actively address racism. The second person has had much more contact with the issue, understands it on conceptual, interpersonal, and personal levels, and therefore is far more likely to become an ally in working against racism.
    I agree with all this.

    The biggest problem I see with trying to work out a solution is that from the privileged end (white in this case, but it could be straight, male, etc), they just don't see the problem so they can't really understand why disadvantaged people are so passionate about causing change. To them, they're wanting "special rights" because from their worldview, they already have the rights they need. (this is of course, all generalizing and I'm not saying every single white person, etc is like this). While at the same time, the disadvantaged people do see all the injustice going on and are tired of putting up with it and having to bend to the privileged person's perspective.

    So the privileged people still have more power and need to see other people's perspectives, but all these factors make them not inclined to do so. And they don't need to in order to live their lives well. And so the disadvantaged people would need to convince the privileged people to listen to them, but that means more of coming into the privileged person's space and speaking their language. Which is something that I think disadvantaged people are touchy about because they've been forced to bend so much already while the privileged person hardly has incentive to bend at all, and they feel how unfair it is. So I feel like in order for progress to be made peacefully, both sides need to do things that they're naturally disinclined to do. So . . . augh.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

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