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Thread: White Pride

  1. #131
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    The point is that YOU ALREADY DO HAVE A SPECIAL PLACE.
    I disagree with Disco about 'White' organizations (I think ALL racial pride movements promote racism and bigotry and are unnecessary for any constructive goals, and should not be supported for that reason), but I get where he's coming from: if you single out one racial group as being disallowed to celebrate racial attributes, or to promote solidarity in the pursuit of perceived common interests on the basis of racial characteristics, then you are effectively saying that members of said group should be ashamed about characteristics that all other groups are encouraged to take pride in. This is objectionable even when the group singled out is in the majority, and becomes absolutely untenable when said group is no longer in the majority, either nationally or within the confines of a large local community.

  2. #132
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    The point is that YOU ALREADY DO HAVE A SPECIAL PLACE. You have had generations after generations of being the head of the damn table, and dictating what's on the menu, every freaking night, which everyone will have to eat (or historically, not even get a share!) with barely any choice in input! This is why it is called privilege.
    Edit - I am not trying to distill racism or discount it. I am trying to illustrate it as one of many forms of discrimination. I am white in the southern US and therefore have not had much firsthand personal experience of racism, though I have observed it and have been told about it, so I seek to associate with it in a way that I DO have firsthand understanding, which is through other forms of discrimination. I am all for actively addressing racism and attempting to prevent it and make up for its negative impacts.

    Let me start out by saying that I do not support any sort of white pride movements. I feel like it's appropriate and fine to enjoy one's ethnicity and cultural background, but I do not think "race" - an artificial construct in and of itself - is something that should be "prided" on and I feel like we have a long way to go still in uplifting many kinds of minorities.

    However, I do want to say that as a white person, I don't feel like I have been privileged for generations because I have not lived for generations. My personal degree of privilege is a complex combination of culture, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, and a number of other attributes. I have been lucky to be born into a family that is fairly well-off, but I have been unlucky to be born into a less privileged gender, for example. My background cultures are variously privileged and unprivileged; within "whiteness" there are varying levels of privilege. I have some family from what is now Serbia (it has gone through many border changes), and that has long been a poor and wartorn area. There is little privileged about it and its inhabitants certainly have not had the power to determine the fate of the many in a very long time, if ever.

    So I do not think it is easy enough to just say that one person has a special place and another doesn't. Most people will have a complex and varied quilt of privilege and lack thereof on the basis of all the different attributes that make them human, ranging from the factors I have mentioned before like sexual orientation and ethnicity to genetically-determined physical attractiveness, intelligence, talents, inborn skills, and so on.

  3. #133
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Let's put it the way:

    As an individual, you are not necessarily treated specially, even if you are white. But as an individual, the fact that you aren't being treated specially has nothing to do with you being white. Being in the category of "white" will not be a bad thing. It will only give you an advantage. Maybe you haven't noticed, maybe it hasn't come around, maybe it has been outweighed by other disadvantages you have. However you slice it, being white is a good thing for you.

    So, protesting about being excluded somehow, or denying privilege, in relation to being white, is bullshit. If you're white, and you feel excluded, and feel you don't have privileges, my advice to you is to look for an explanation outside of race, because it isn't your race.
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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, yeah, the events are always held in the summer, before autumn hits.
    Fucking allergies.

  5. #135
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Let's put it the way:

    As an individual, you are not necessarily treated specially, even if you are white. But as an individual, the fact that you aren't being treated specially has nothing to do with you being white. Being in the category of "white" will not be a bad thing. It will only give you an advantage. Maybe you haven't noticed, maybe it hasn't come around, maybe it has been outweighed by other disadvantages you have. However you slice it, being white is a good thing for you.

    So, protesting about being excluded somehow, or denying privilege, in relation to being white, is bullshit. If you're white, and you feel excluded, and feel you don't have privileges, my advice to you is to look for an explanation outside of race, because it isn't your race.
    This. White is the default setting in the US. It's 'normal.'

    Like, when I go into a school wanting something addressed for my kids, I get treated like a woman and maybe like a poor woman, but I don't have to deal with being treated like an "angry black woman" or an illegal immigrant, etc in addition to those things. My whiteness and the whiteness of my kids makes me and us more sympathetic to the people I'm dealing with. We didn't earn that. Unless you count my ancestors likely participating in enslaving or ethnically cleansing the ancestors of the moms of color that may have similar requests, but get to deal with all manner of additional crap.

    I have mixed feelings about my privilege. I don't think anyone should have to deal with racism, but I'm glad that I don't have to deal with it in addition to the other stuff I do have to deal with. I want no one to have to deal with sexism, classism, racism, etc. I want to do what I can to work toward ending it and to not be part of the problem.

    So I'm relieved that I'm white, but I'm not proud. And I don't think that whites are going to be an oppressed minority in America for many generations, if ever. But if that's a real fear, then we should address all forms of oppression and discrimination to the best of our ability so that there will be no culture of oppression and discrimination should whites lose the power we have as we move towards not being a numerical majority.

    It just seems a lot better to earn some goodwill than to circle the wagons to me. When you circle the wagons, you leave the people outside no choice but to come in after you. I can't imagine not fighting for equality with every tool at my disposal for as long as it takes to make it happen for myself and my children. I would expect the same from all people. Statistically, the US still has a ways to go, especially with race. And I will consider being proud of being white when and if we get there.
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  6. #136
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I disagree with Disco about 'White' organizations (I think ALL racial pride movements promote racism and bigotry and are unnecessary for any constructive goals, and should not be supported for that reason), but I get where he's coming from: if you single out one racial group as being disallowed to celebrate racial attributes, or to promote solidarity in the pursuit of perceived common interests on the basis of racial characteristics, then you are effectively saying that members of said group should be ashamed about characteristics that all other groups are encouraged to take pride in. This is objectionable even when the group singled out is in the majority, and becomes absolutely untenable when said group is no longer in the majority, either nationally or within the confines of a large local community.
    I don't think, other than blacks, there are any pride movements based on race, as much as it is by culture. There's no Brown Pride Movement, or Oriental Pride Movement, etc. There is a very obvious reason for that. America has historically had (and still have remenants of) a caste system - and it is based on race - with a clear dichotomy - black/white. And within the last few decades, the Latino.

    The very fact that blacks in USA don't have any cultural roots that they can trace back to (and take PRIDE in, feel empowered by), other than being unified by the colour of their skin, to echo their history, their shaped identity, is sad, and a reality. Thus, they unite together, based on their unifying race, and shape their cultural identity based on that. I don't think you really thought about this, what this means. They are the ONLY group, in USA, who basically had to BUILD a cultural identity from scratch because before that, they were not even given personhood to be able to claim a cultural identity. So, the colour of their skin is their only bond to each other - because that has been the identifying mark that have been used to segregate them, abuse them, marginalize them. For generations now.

    As an Indian person, I have a whole legacy, history, which although has scars from colonization, I can still speak to my land, my people, my traditions. My culture. My South Asian heritage.

    What do you propose the majority of black people in USA unite together as (not speaking of those recently immigrated from the Caribbean, African countries etc - who actually have a cultural identity that's distinct from the blacks who are generations settled in USA)? Culturally speaking? If not by race? Suggestions welcomed, would love to hear it!

  7. #137
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Let's put it the way:

    As an individual, you are not necessarily treated specially, even if you are white. But as an individual, the fact that you aren't being treated specially has nothing to do with you being white. Being in the category of "white" will not be a bad thing. It will only give you an advantage. Maybe you haven't noticed, maybe it hasn't come around, maybe it has been outweighed by other disadvantages you have. However you slice it, being white is a good thing for you.

    So, protesting about being excluded somehow, or denying privilege, in relation to being white, is bullshit. If you're white, and you feel excluded, and feel you don't have privileges, my advice to you is to look for an explanation outside of race, because it isn't your race.
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    This. White is the default setting in the US. It's 'normal.'

    Like, when I go into a school wanting something addressed for my kids, I get treated like a woman and maybe like a poor woman, but I don't have to deal with being treated like an "angry black woman" or an illegal immigrant, etc in addition to those things. My whiteness and the whiteness of my kids makes me and us more sympathetic to the people I'm dealing with. We didn't earn that. Unless you count my ancestors likely participating in enslaving or ethnically cleansing the ancestors of the moms of color that may have similar requests, but get to deal with all manner of additional crap.

    I have mixed feelings about my privilege. I don't think anyone should have to deal with racism, but I'm glad that I don't have to deal with it in addition to the other stuff I do have to deal with. I want no one to have to deal with sexism, classism, racism, etc. I want to do what I can to work toward ending it and to not be part of the problem.

    So I'm relieved that I'm white, but I'm not proud. And I don't think that whites are going to be an oppressed minority in America for many generations, if ever. But if that's a real fear, then we should address all forms of oppression and discrimination to the best of our ability so that there will be no culture of oppression and discrimination should whites lose the power we have as we move towards not being a numerical majority.

    It just seems a lot better to earn some goodwill than to circle the wagons to me. When you circle the wagons, you leave the people outside no choice but to come in after you. I can't imagine not fighting for equality with every tool at my disposal for as long as it takes to make it happen for myself and my children. I would expect the same from all people. Statistically, the US still has a ways to go, especially with race. And I will consider being proud of being white when and if we get there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Let me start out by saying that I do not support any sort of white pride movements. I feel like it's appropriate and fine to enjoy one's ethnicity and cultural background, but I do not think "race" - an artificial construct in and of itself - is something that should be "prided" on and I feel like we have a long way to go still in uplifting many kinds of minorities.

    However, I do want to say that as a white person, I don't feel like I have been privileged for generations because I have not lived for generations. My personal degree of privilege is a complex combination of culture, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, and a number of other attributes. I have been lucky to be born into a family that is fairly well-off, but I have been unlucky to be born into a less privileged gender, for example. My background cultures are variously privileged and unprivileged; within "whiteness" there are varying levels of privilege. I have some family from what is now Serbia (it has gone through many border changes), and that has long been a poor and wartorn area. There is little privileged about it and its inhabitants certainly have not had the power to determine the fate of the many in a very long time, if ever.

    So I do not think it is easy enough to just say that one person has a special place and another doesn't. Most people will have a complex and varied quilt of privilege and lack thereof on the basis of all the different attributes that make them human, ranging from the factors I have mentioned before like sexual orientation and ethnicity to genetically-determined physical attractiveness, intelligence, talents, inborn skills, and so on.

    It is my hope that the perspective of race will eventually fade and be replaced by acknowledgement of all sorts of privilege and lack thereof.
    ????? What is this?

    I can't even....

    I feel like you think that you're throwing roses at the "situation of unrest", when you're really just throwing away the unwanted stems with thorns, because they're too uncomfortable and prickly for your taste. What your hope is, what your personal experience is, DOES NOT negate the reality of racism in USA. How to Make an American Quilt, this is not.

  8. #138
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Another thread wherein rich white boys complain that their gilded bowl is only 3/4 full. Wahhhh. How dare you minorities band together! It's very bad for one’s sense of privilege...

    All racial pride is bullshit. All of it. It has no utility in my universe. It has none in any universe. It's all a misdirection and distortion of superficial characteristics.

  9. #139
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    I don't think, other than blacks, there are any pride movements based on race, as much as it is by culture.
    Most are kind of a mixture in that regard, for instance 'Hispanic' or 'Latino' pride (as opposed to Mexican, Colombian, or Mayan Pride) is largely the equivalent of 'European' pride (which in itself would technically be cultural, though I suspect most advocates of 'White' pride are not exactly including, say, the Middle East in their celebrations) as opposed to Scottish, German, or Galician pride-and in both cases, too diffuse of a categorization to include anything but superficial similarities.

    And yeah, the case of blacks descended from slaves in America is a gray area, as 'race' was forcefully amalgamated into ethnicity, and a certain amount of latitude is understood to be given in that case.....but its still a problematic (even if largely unavoidable in this case) avenue for identity.

  10. #140
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    However you slice it, being white is a good thing for you.
    Throughout most of the country, it is.....at a marginal level compared to other variables.

    In any event, race-based pride and race-based privilege are two different concepts (and fixation on either tends to be less than constructive in practice).

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