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Thread: White Pride

  1. #91

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    The problem is in the abstraction. I could start a penis parade, be proud of your penis. And then people would abstract that to masculinity as a whole. And it has to have the minority thing, or in some way underdog status to have a cool image. Image is everything.

  2. #92
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    No shit.

    But as demographics change the conversation changes.

    I have no problems with the pride movements themselves, or the political implications. Everyone is entitled to their team and to pursue their interests to the extent of their abilities.
    When white Americans have to overcome discrimination then maybe I can see us being united and proud.

    Uniting as whites in anticipation of discrimination seems to only incite feelings of harmful division.

    How about we just focus on human rights across the board?

    I have a problem with not having a seat at the table even as demographics are shifting away from us.

    It will never be enough. No matter how much the world changes, or what the country's CEO's, ruling class, whatever look like there will always be some poor group that we just must come to the aid of because of big bad white people and all their privilege.

    Its fucking tiring to be the last acceptable group to hate this country.

    It's easy to act like the bad guy when you are treated like one.

    In sum, I just want a seat for white people at the table as we diminish in statistical prominence.

    Either way I'm fucking done with this conversation.
    Ok, so your issue is not that other groups are playing up their victimization for political advantage, but that you don't get to do that, too?

    How about we all seek the common good in policy making instead of pretending this is some sort of zero-sum game?
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Ok, so your issue is not that other groups are playing up their victimization for political advantage, but that you don't get to do that, too?
    Sort of. I don't begrudge anyone for repping their group.

    What I do mind is how exaggerated some of the claims of victimization are. As if we are living through, Jim Crow, Kristallnacht, and the cultural revolution all rolled into one.

    Yes, my biggest point of umbrage is that multiculturalism has amounted to a special seat at the table for everyone but us

    Even if we broke it down to regional culture that'd be just fine. Just so long as we all get a special place.

    How about we all seek the common good in policy making instead of pretending this is some sort of zero-sum game?
    In a Mexican standoff you put down your gun at the same time the other guy does.

    Until then I'll be waiting.

  4. #94
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    All race related pride movements should be looked down upon because they have potential for racist agendas; unless they are struggling for equal rights.

    However if fighting for equal rights having a prideful connotation to the movement would be counterproductive in the long run, because if the movement managed to win the equal rights they were struggling for in the long run it would act as a separatist element in people's minds of all parties involved.

    The issue is the word pride is open for interpretation. Are you simply acknowledging one's heritage or are you encouraging a superiority complex?

    The wordings make all the difference and the word pride sits too much on the edge.

    Having not much knowledge in the struggles of minority groups in the west, I'm wondering whether Martin Luther King's equal rights campaigns had prideful connotations to it? Even I they had it I wouldn't look down on them but if they didn't it would prove my point because it goes to show that pride isn't necessary to win anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    outside of ones control
    This too.

  5. #95
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    The problem is what comes first, the race or the person?

    I understand concepts of categorisation and the larger the subject material the more spread and general that category becomes. But it's part of how the human mind works, taking raw perception and breaking that information down into a rationalisation which becomes understandable to us and relatable with other information.

    The problem is that sometimes the category overtakes the humanity in a situation and race is one of those situations. But don't misunderstand me, I'm not implying that people shouldn't identify themselves by race, nor should one forget past injustices caused by the generalisation and perpetuation of stereotypes by those who are unable to discern between correlation and coincidence.

    What I am saying is that I take little to no pride in a notion of skin colour. I have the pale colouration of one who lacks a large melanin count, as much as the description implies; that's about as far as my appreciation goes.

    Humanity achieves things, not melanin counts, unless it is resisting certain UV based issues.

    So maybe it sounds like I am championing the now cliche notion of humans being the same under the skin. On some level yes, but also I am trying to break down the notions of division that always rise and fall.

    Because of our structured approach to reality, it is obvious that we will end up in systems where certain categories of people have privilege over others.
    Skin colour and race is one of the worst culprits and some of the actions that have been taken with those ideas, are some of the most heinous in our history and indeed our present.

    Fear of the unknown, prejudice, scapegoating....etc....

    These concepts have plagued us since our evolutionary awakening, in some ways they helped us to get where we are now...far back in our genetic ancestry, but...the point of being human is that we at least have the illusion of control in our own consciousness and with that comes a responsibility to afford basic rights that we would demand if we were denied them.

    And as an extension of that to modern society, the right to not be judged upon characteristics that are circumstantially genetic and have no basis for the stereotypes that often plague them.

    I won't lie or deny, I have benefited, unknowingly, from privileges...but the privileges of prejudice are not privileges I wish to live under.

    I remember making a similar argument once, to which someone pointed out that if I were in an urban ghetto, would I not be nervous and suspicious of a group of people with darker skin than my own, dressed in clothes that fit with that surrounding? And I replied that I probably would and my reasons would not be based entirely upon locale or clothes, in fact there would probably be some racial profiling in my mind without me fully realising it.

    But then I would have to recognise that prejudice within myself, understand the indoctrination of it and understand why I thought that and see the circumstances and causal effects which cause people to end up in rough environments, being stuck in cycles and perpetuations. Does this mean I would appreciate the hardship of others if that group mugged me?

    Perhaps not. But knowing this does allow me not to simply smear a category on all people in urban ghettos and to be precise, those of different melanin counts to myself.

    The way to break that privilege is not by enforcing a division, but by recognising how to wear it down...over time and make that privilege everyone's privilege. Sure we are a long way, perhaps always will be a long way, from certain types of fair.

    But that doesn't mean we should slack or give up.

    Context is important and so is precedent. It really is a simple idea that those who have been at the heel of injustice and oppression as a smaller group to a larger one obviously want to create their own pride, having spent so long being deprived of it and told lies that downplay it.

    White pride? Pride in what? I have pride in the achievements of people, on a little rock in space, striving as only life can.

    Pride in humanity...now there is a rally I would go to.

    Which is not to trivialise the struggle of others who have felt the cruelness of prejudice by skin colour, just....I think that would be the end result.

    But maybe I'm just naive...and thinking too far removed from real problems. Life is always crueler when it is in your face, as opposed to in your mind.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    No shit.

    But as demographics change the conversation changes.

    I have no problems with the pride movements themselves, or the political implications. Everyone is entitled to their team and to pursue their interests to the extent of their abilities.

    I have a problem with not having a seat at the table even as demographics are shifting away from us.

    It will never be enough. No matter how much the world changes, or what the country's CEO's, ruling class, whatever look like there will always be some poor group that we just must come to the aid of because of big bad white people and all their privilege.

    Its fucking tiring to be the last acceptable group to hate this country.

    It's easy to act like the bad guy when you are treated like one.

    In sum, I just want a seat for white people at the table as we diminish in statistical prominence.

    Either way I'm fucking done with this conversation.
    This complaint sounds exactly like your one in the thread about gender equality. Sounds like something deeper is going on.

    Is it really not enough? You feel you're being deprived? Expected to have less than? Would you call yourself a humble person? Do you see any value in such a thing?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    This complaint sounds exactly like your one in the thread about gender equality.
    Because it is basically the same problem in each instance.

    Sounds like something deeper is going on.
    You wouldn't have said anything if you didn't already have your suspicions.

    So lets hear em...

    Is it really not enough? You feel you're being deprived? Expected to have less than?
    I feel like being a white male coming from a family that hasn't had to struggle financially, that I am regarded with nothing but contempt and disgust from large swaths of the public, and most of its opinion makers.

    If I am deprived it's because I haven't worked hard enough. If I fuck up it's on me.

    Society's not to blame, that guy Dale in accounting's not to blame, structural injustice is not to blame.... I am.

    Because I'm the only one in control of my actions and I shouldn't expect the world to cater to my needs.

  8. #98
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Sort of. I don't begrudge anyone for repping their group.

    What I do mind is how exaggerated some of the claims of victimization are. As if we are living through, Jim Crow, Kristallnacht, and the cultural revolution all rolled into one.
    No, things aren't as obvious. This is my problem with the current pc agenda and coercion techniques. It's just made systemic racism far more insidious and difficult to deal with. It hasn't changed hearts and minds.

    Right now only 1 in 5 black men are eligible to vote. Sure, it's better than being considered 3/5 a person and the more outright limiting of rights during Jim Crow, but it's pretty obvious evidence of systemic racism.

    Nobody is proud of having black or white skin. That's stupid. The pride comes from dealing with the social implications of your skin color. In my mind this has nothing to do with everyone being in a different "group" and repping that "group."

    When it comes to being white there is just nothing to rep. That's because we're privileged and we should be thankful for that. Not guilt laden and not proud.*

    As far as I can tell MLK's dream was to move African-Americans to this same privileged status where people would be judged on their character and have the same access to the material benefits that the country could provide.

    Yes, my biggest point of umbrage is that multiculturalism has amounted to a special seat at the table for everyone but us
    I have issues with multiculturalism, but this I just don't understand.

    In a Mexican standoff you put down your gun at the same time the other guy does.

    Until then I'll be waiting.
    Well, i don't quite see this as a Mexican standoff. Like MLK I think our destinies are intertwined and reconciliation is in both of our interests.

    Don't get me wrong there's plenty of people who write about racial politics that irk the hell out of me. Lately I've noticed some people calling anything and everything "white supremecy" which is really annoying and combative language that's not conducive to reconciliation.

    But, if this were a stand-off you know enough about politics to know that the solution to a stand-off is to take the focus off whatever the two sides are at odds on and focusing on a win-win policy. Dealing with drug laws and the death penalty would be a good first step. It could be a good win-win as social justice for african americans could be increased and the finacial cost of the justice system could be lessened.

    I'm not certain what exactly a white student union would accomplish.


    *when I speak of privilege as a positive thing I'm referring only to the general advantages accumulated by privilege and not advantages OVER or AGAINST someone else.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Because it is basically the same problem in each instance.



    You wouldn't have said anything if you didn't already have your suspicions.

    So lets hear em...



    I feel like being a white male coming from a family that hasn't had to struggle financially, that I am regarded with nothing but contempt and disgust from large swaths of the public, and most of its opinion makers.

    If I am deprived it's because I haven't worked hard enough. If I fuck up it's on me.

    Society's not to blame, that guy Dale in accounting's not to blame, structural injustice is not to blame.... I am.

    Because I'm the only one in control of my actions and I shouldn't expect the world to cater to my needs.
    Who's blaming you tho? Is this just some sort of white/ male guilt thing you've taken on?

    I'm just saying what you have and what you are is enough and nobody is trying to take anything from you.

    I think you might benefit from allowing yourself to feel compassion for those that have a harder time in life without feeling " what about me"

    You're fine. Feeling compassion towards others doesn't take anything away from you.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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    ^Assuming I don't feel compassion takes plenty away from me.

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