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  1. #71
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    hey sorry...i haven't read the thread but i don't think i want what you just said
    Indeed, it is quite the ultimatum, though it appears to be the one mankind faces: die now, or later. Likely we will die later, and in slow and painful fashion. It is very unfortunate that this will most likely be the case, as man had much potential, and man squandered it.

    You, Lady X, stand out as an exemplar of the goodness that man could become, and so does Nicolita and Starry—among many others on this forum. You all know how to foster goodness in the hearts of those whom you encounter. I have great brotherly love for you fine women, and I truly wish there were more like you in our world.
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  2. #72
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    I will wait until @Marmotini proves us that a genetic mutation occured within the Y-chromosome of "American Caucasian males".
    A mutation that would change their behavior and make them especially prone to random mass shootings.

    [hostile comment removed}

    Or...

    You can try to answer this issue within the American socio-economico-political context.

    -----

    I don't care if those who are responsible of mass shootings are treated as "mentally ill persons". They really are, and they should be handled the same way than so-called "islamic terrorists", or any person with a dangerous mental illness.
    The Guantanamo prison is already a shame, and I don't see why "white Caucasian penises", why "black Afro-american penises" or why "brown Arab penises" should also be treated this way.
    The Guantanamo prison is illegal anyway.

    Hate, prejudice and fear never are the "solution to any problem in the U.S.".
    Last edited by highlander; 11-05-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    ^Cultural trends can exist among groups that have little to do with biology.

    You might be able to identify trends that do actually point to how white, american, (insert class), males behave or certain sets of beliefs which might make their role in mass shootings unique.

    However, there isn't significant evidence that's been presented here that suggests that 'white entitlement' really is the cause of these shootings.




    On a biology note, something like 97% of death row inmates (violent murderers) are male. I think there is clearly something with men that potentially predisposes them to violence that doesn't effect women in the same way. It's quite likely a biological factor IMO, I can't imagine just culture creating such a trend that seems to have always existed.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Marm, I'm struggling with your math here and the math is important because it forms a major portion of the basis for your argument. We can all agree that women are less likely to be public shooters than women, regardless as to race. Women are much less likely to commit violent crime of any type though so I guess that overall this is consistent with what we would expect.

    You say that 19 out of 20 of the perpetrators are white middle class men. Then you say that 70% of them are white men. Those two statements are inconsistent with each other. 19/20 = 95% which doesn't = 70%. Also, middle class makes up only about 45% of of the population and I don't see any statistics here on the perpetrators being middle class or any specific class whatsoever. Do you have some facts to back up the assertion on the percentage that are middle class?

    At first, I wondered if there was something to this - that white middle class men seem to be perpetrators and what might lead to that. I am not seeing how the facts are backing this assertion up though. Seems like you might be playing loose with the facts or numbers.
    Are you joking? The 19/20 statement was off the hip, and applies loosely to the past 25 to 30 shootings, the current trend. The 70 percent and 44 out of 62 are the official numbers.

    Serial killers are also more likely to be middle class white men. Even though Eileen Wuarnos exists, most of her counterparts are middle class white males.

    No one flinched when I linked African American men to drive by shooting in the 1990s, though.

    You guys are the ones who are racist and sexist. You would probably rather piss yourself in public than admit that white males make up the majority of any negative demographic.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by two cents View Post
    Middle-class white men and their entitlement aside (I generally agree with your description of the problem) I'm not sure the proposed solution would be helpful.

    A number of these shooters HAVE been taken alive, but some have shot themselves or (possibly also, I don't know) been shot by bystanders/law enforcement. I'm surprised they HAVEN'T all been treated as terrorists, since what they were committing were definitely terrorist acts (their motivations don't matter, a mass shooting is a terrorist act). I think they should be treated as terrorists, though I'm not crazy about US govt track record in the treatment of terror suspects (but that's a separate issue).

    Here's the problem: I don't think taking the shooters alive and treating them as terrorists is going to prevent the mass shootings in any way. The people who do this are not expecting to get away with it. Some of them aren't even expecting to live (and I don't see how it's possible to stop them from shooting themselves after they are done executing their plan -- they are often done by the time law enforcement even arrives, and then the perp's life isn't as much of a priority as stopping them from killing more people, which is as it should be. In general, the threat of punishment is only a remotely successful deterrent when people feel like they have something to lose. Whether or not the source of the shooters' desperation is reasonable, they ARE desperate, so the threat of extra-stern punishment isn't going to deter them.

    It's the sense of entitlement itself, and its collision with reality that's the problem. Maybe identifying those who are likely to get violent about not getting what they feel they deserve could help prevent some mass killings, but that's veering into thought police and Minority Report territory.
    They are not necessarily desperate ...the Columbine killers were researched thoroughly and found to not be nerds, not be bullied, okay students, not Marilyn Manson fans, but sociopaths who had extensive plans to cause destruction beyond the school. They laughed and hooted as they murdered their classmates.

    I think it is human to try to relate to serial killers and mass murderers, but it's illogical and stands in the way of actually solving the problem. It's your human empathy that wants to believe they are desperate. Reality suggests most of these shooters were narcissists or sociopaths, who do not feel empathy.

    It is crazy to me that white menz in this thread are behaving this way when CLEARLY these perps are abnormal to the point of needing to be cast out of society. Do they also get this defensive about Ted Bundy and Charles Manson?

    Which brings me back to my original point: too much sympathy is being wrongly extended to white terrorists.

  6. #76
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    I just want to reiterate here that I never said all white men are this way. Clearly they are not, or public shooters would not be considered societal freaks...but see that's the problem. Are they really freaks, or just unempathetic self absorbed monsters?

    I have found it disconcerting that when black men are sociopaths they are imprisoned and forgotten about, and when they are Arabic they are "the evil enemy" but when they are white men they become fucking celebrities.

    It is CRUCIAL that I pointed out that they are mostly white men, because it affects how they are regarded by society, and that could definitely spurn forward a fame seeking narcissistic person in a narcissistic society.

    People don't start killing strangers in public places because they are depressed or suicidal. That's such a cop out it makes me sick.

  7. #77
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I don't know how these kinds of news are presented in the US, but I like the idea of labeling them as 'terrorists' (unless some people think terrorists are 'cool', then that would be a bad idea)

    Banning guns might also be a good idea as well...
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  8. #78
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Are you joking? The 19/20 statement was off the hip, and applies loosely to the past 25 to 30 shootings, the current trend. The 70 percent and 44 out of 62 are the official numbers.

    Serial killers are also more likely to be middle class white men. Even though Eileen Wuarnos exists, most of her counterparts are middle class white males.

    No one flinched when I linked African American men to drive by shooting in the 1990s, though.

    You guys are the ones who are racist and sexist. You would probably rather piss yourself in public than admit that white males make up the majority of any negative demographic.
    So you don't have statistics or evidence to back up the claim that it's middle class white men then. If you did, I suppose you would provide them.

    If there isn't a statistically significant % of perpetrators that are "middle class white men" above the percentage of them in the overall population, it blows your whole argument out of the water. It means what you are saying is fiction. I won't say you are racist or sexist because perhaps this is a popular misconception. It would just mean that you are wrong.

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  9. #79

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    I should preface this post, which will seem cold and analytical, by saying that mass murder is horrible, and wish it never occurred.
    -----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Assuming that for each racial group, there is an equal number of men and women (that is, 50% any percentage of whites or blacks is male/female), this would suggest that whites are over represented by around ~7% (if we just take data for 2010) for the number of mass shootings based on their population size, which has varying since 1982 (and I haven't adjusted for the variation by years).

    In 1990, non-hispanic whites were 75.6% of population. In 2000, 69.1%. In 2010, 63.7%.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-His...e_or_territory

    While this indicates that men are clearly more likely to be shooters than women, it doesn't indicate white men are especially more likely to be shooters than any other group based on population size. I'm not going to add up every number*, but the average here suggests that they are probably 'on-par' or a percentage point or three high for their size of the population (removing gender).


    I think men are significantly more prone to homicidal urges but I'm not seeing where white men are demonstrably more homicidal than any other group of males.




    *This is a rough estimate

    Addition: I'm not an expert in statistics but because there is a smallish sample size (62 shootings, and I'm taking Marm's stats as she stated them), I think that a few percentage points becomes less significant. If there were thousands of shootings, a 3 percent difference would mean a lot more (stronger trend) than with 62 shootings. (with 62 people each person represents 1.6%, so two people any direction could make a 3% shift)


    You could still make profiles about certain types of "white, middle class" shooters, but I don't think the stats demonstrate that white men are especially more or less likely to be shooters than other groups of men.


    Addition 2:
    Since I'm no expert in stats I'd welcome criticism on a factual basis of my assessment.
    One confounding factor is that many of the shootings counted were a form of Islamist terrorism. Some of them Mother Jones counted as white, some not.

    I think we are in fact seeing a conglomeration of many phenomenon. One is motivated because of identification with an extreme vision of religious identity related to Islamist Ideology (which I distinguish from Islam itself), other aspects could be a mix of bunch of other things, including @marmatoni 's hypothesis. I also noticed, that some of these were personal incidents that ended up involving more people in the cross-fire...this included a significant black population of shooters. I think a single picture of what is going on oversimplifies things.

    It does seem reasonable based on their sheet to assume that Latinos include White Hispanics, so your assumption of comparing 63% against Non-Hispanic White to the 70% among the shooters. The white population in general is declining so more recent years onward, Marm's argument gains strength with the increase in death count of these shootings. However, in the 2000s 23/35 shooters (63%) were white, which is right "on par" as you were saying. There was only one shooting in 2010 (by a black shooter), but in 2011, 2/3 were white (66%), the other was latino, in 2012, 5/7 shooters were white (about 71%), while the other two were Asian.

    However, whites may still be over-represented. To see if this difference is statistically significant, we would need to some analysis of the variance. I am not sure if @Jonny (or anyone else) wants to do it. The spreadsheet is downloadable ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0RHhUdkE#gid=0 ). I have a day with enough tedium to look forward to, so I'm skipping it for now. But my intuition on scanning through the variance looking through the years is that there is significant variance in the percent of white non-hispanic shooters. I would say that the data shows at best a significance level at a 10%. I should also note that same intuition leads me to believe Asians are over-represented in this as well. I would doubt that the p-values would be any better than 10% (so just barely statistically significant, if that. Most people would want something like 5% or smaller). It is too bad socioeconomic data is not there.

    My own observations after sorting by race:
    • Asian shooters were mostly workplace shooters, school shooters, and one in a spa another in at a civic organization
    • Black shooters generally seemed to be either shooting people they knew(family, girlfriends) or authority figures (police, workplaces they were fired from, people denying something they wanted).
    • Latino shooters had one arson (his apartment) with hostage taking, two incidents at a hotel, and one at a restaurant
    • The one Native American shooter on the list killed his grandfather and girlfriend and then went shot many people on the reservation school
    • The one Unknown race shooter on the list shot up his workplace because he was unhappy with his job assignment
    • I couldn't really spot a pattern among the white shooters, but then again, I was just summarizing the summaries for some the other races.


    Also, all of this has to be tempered with what would be considered a "mass" shooting spree could have a cut-off on the low-end for the number of fatalities (for instance). If we say a dozen or more is what constitutes it being "mass", then 7/10 (70%) where white (a couple in the 80s, a couple in the 90s, the rest after 2007).

    If we limit to "school shootings" (the venues limited to schools), 8/12 were white (66%), 3/12 were Asian (25%).

    If we combine both, to "mass school shootings", the 7/9 were white (78%), one was Asian, the other was Native American. I am pretty sure this is too small a sample size to say anything significant. But if people are remembering "mass school shootings", then they would be right in noticing that at the current moment white shooters are more common among shooters than in the general population. But ascribing it significance may be too much of an inference.
    -------------
    To be honest, after looking through the data, I think it best to just deal with potential threats case by case. If we see people fascinated by weapons and also showing signs of mental illness, it may time to take some precautionary measures.
    -------------

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  10. #80
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Now before any naive people suggest this is about mental illness, you need to check your statistics on mentally ill women and non-white men, who are much less likely to randomly kill in public spaces. So much so that to me "mental illness" seems like a bleeding heart irrational cop out.

    [hostile comment removed]

    It's terrorism, plain and simple. It's terrorism in a pathetic attempt to glorify the self.

    White male terrorists who shoot innocent people for no good reason should be captured alive and taken to terrorist prison camps, just like their Jihadist counterparts. To do anything less is naive stupidity and racism.
    Your thesis is incomplete. What are the political goals of these terrorists?

    ter·ror·ism
    ˈterəˌrizəm/Submit
    noun
    1.
    the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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