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  1. #61
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    White men are more likely to commit this crime, right now, under our specific social circumstances. Just because some one in other points in time committed mass shootings who were not white males, it does not make them any less likely to do it now. Just like with gangland drive bys that were committed by white men more in the 1930s, in the 1990s the majority of this crime was black on black, mostly for socioeconomic reasons.

    There are also sociological reasons why white men are most likely to commit this crime now.

    There is something fucked up in the middle class white men community right now.
    Based on the data you provided and my own rough estimates (methodology outlined above), this problem is unlike black on black drive-by and 1930s gangsters.

    How?

    If a group of say, 10%, is responsible for 90% of a problem, it says something about that problem that probably relates to something specific going on in that group.

    Current mass shootings appear to be committed by whites in a proportion equivalent to their overall proportion of the population. Meaning around 70% of shootings are committed by a group that is around 65% of the population.

    This doesn't demonstrate there is a specific 'white male' problem. It does demonstrate there is something unique about males that overwhelmingly make them responsible, but it seems likely there is an affliction that causes problems across race, regardless of race.

    Perhaps there are, in fact, 'white male' attributes specific to them, but you'll need more statistics to demonstrate something which even suggests clear causality.
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  2. #62
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    There is something fucked up in the middle class white men community right now.
    I think that this is an unfair statement. We've had (if I understood the statistics posted earlier) something like 42 white-man mass shootings in approximately the last 40 years. Round that off to 1 per year. If the US has 340 million people, 170 million of are men, and say, 100 million of those are white men, we're looking at a rate of approximately 1 white man mass shooter per 100 million men per year. This does not indicate anything about white men in general, much less the "white man community". That isn't meant to belittle the tragedies that have happened. But implicating white men in the rare (yet highly sensationalized) crimes of other white men is unfair and unwarranted.

    Now, if you want to get to the reasons I think this sort of thing happens... I think that both sides have some valid points. Mental illness? Absolutely. Mentally stable people don't do stuff like this. But I don't necessarily think that there's an agenda here, beyond selfishness. Along the lines of "my life sucks, so you all deserve to die, I'm going out with a bang" type selfishness. It's people who think that they have no options, no hope for success, and have warped that into a dominating belief that it's somebody else's fault. Throw in the mental illness and access to weapons, and in rare cases, you have a shooter.

    I may be showing my political biases here... but I tend to believe that whatever portion of this is not mental illness (and I think a lot of it is) is exacerbated by lack of opportunity, rightly or wrongly. Tkae does have a point in that it grates to be told that, as a white man, *everything* is your fault, just because the "ruling class" is composed largely of white men. Very few white men are in that group. Most of us are just regular guys trying to make our way like anyone else.
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  3. #63
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Did you not understand my post? White middle class men are the perp 19 out of 20 times....and culturally they are not punished here like African American criminals and Middle Eastern terrorists.....instead society says what is wrong with poor Johnny.

    My argument is that Johnny is not poor, he is well off, bored, and deeply upset he isn't dating Scarlet Johannson and not elected president of his new tiny libertarian kingdom. No, Johnny is a terrorist who wants fame and individuality at any price, and he must be stopped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Between 1982 and 2012 there were 62 mass public shooters and 44 of them were white males.
    Marm, I'm struggling with your math here and the math is important because it forms a major portion of the basis for your argument. We can all agree that women are less likely to be public shooters than men, regardless as to race. Women are much less likely to commit violent crime of any type though so I guess that overall this is consistent with what we would expect.

    You say that 19 out of 20 of the perpetrators are white middle class men. Then you say that 70% of them are white men. Those two statements are inconsistent with each other. 19/20 = 95% which doesn't = 70%. Also, middle class makes up only about 45% of of the population and I don't see any statistics here on the perpetrators being middle class or any specific class whatsoever. Do you have some facts to back up the assertion on the percentage that are middle class?

    At first, I wondered if there was something to this - that white middle class men seem to be perpetrators and what might lead to that. I am not seeing how the facts are backing this assertion up though. Seems like you might be playing loose with the facts or numbers.
    Last edited by highlander; 07-06-2016 at 12:13 PM.

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  4. #64
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Middle-class white men and their entitlement aside (I generally agree with your description of the problem) I'm not sure the proposed solution would be helpful.

    A number of these shooters HAVE been taken alive, but some have shot themselves or (possibly also, I don't know) been shot by bystanders/law enforcement. I'm surprised they HAVEN'T all been treated as terrorists, since what they were committing were definitely terrorist acts (their motivations don't matter, a mass shooting is a terrorist act). I think they should be treated as terrorists, though I'm not crazy about US govt track record in the treatment of terror suspects (but that's a separate issue).

    Here's the problem: I don't think taking the shooters alive and treating them as terrorists is going to prevent the mass shootings in any way. The people who do this are not expecting to get away with it. Some of them aren't even expecting to live (and I don't see how it's possible to stop them from shooting themselves after they are done executing their plan -- they are often done by the time law enforcement even arrives, and then the perp's life isn't as much of a priority as stopping them from killing more people, which is as it should be. In general, the threat of punishment is only a remotely successful deterrent when people feel like they have something to lose. Whether or not the source of the shooters' desperation is reasonable, they ARE desperate, so the threat of extra-stern punishment isn't going to deter them.

    It's the sense of entitlement itself, and its collision with reality that's the problem. Maybe identifying those who are likely to get violent about not getting what they feel they deserve could help prevent some mass killings, but that's veering into thought police and Minority Report territory.
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  5. #65
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Breakdown of community due to paranoia transmitted from boomers combined with emotionally repressive expectations for men might play a role in the mass shootings. I'm sure there are other factors involved as well. I am not saying this to excuse any of it, but I think if someone is concerned about the problem, an objective understanding of the situation is of at least as much use as a subjective one.
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  6. #66
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    This is a racist and misandrist thread.

    Because the OP seem to think that mass shootings imply:

    (1) Being white
    (2) Having a penis (I quote her words)

    It's totally irrelevant. Because:

    (a) Such mass shootings occur everywhere in the world, and they imply a lot of different ethnic groups.
    (b) Women can do similar things at horrifying scales. And if Marm deny this, then I will ask @Riva as a witness, to tell us what the LTTE have done to his country, and who they were.

    -----

    The real causes seem more complex than just "race" and "gender" (both being "essentialist" factors). There are lot of others contextual factors to take into account. Easy access to weapons, psychological disorders, socio-economic context... countless other influences and explainations, most of them being specific to the US...

    And the proof is that where most "white penises" currently are (->Europe), such mass shootings rarely occur. The answer, wherever it may lie, is not to be found in our genes or our skin color.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    This is a racist and misandrist thread.
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Marm, I'm struggling with your math here.
    Lol, her math is the only thing you're struggling with?

    Ok.
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  8. #68
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    To hell with the numbers! How about we just create a more high-minded society? So let's invent complex strategies involving the overthrow of our current world system to initiate the establishment of a future where we build the bridges of faith and friendship. We will unleash the powers of chaos and destruction to forge new constructs of more benevolent designs.

  9. #69
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    The utter impurity and moral vacancy of Earth sickens me. This planet deserves a gamma ray burst—painless, yet effective in cleansing this place of evil…

    However, the rarity of such an event means that this so-called "dominant race" must take drastic action or else die slowly and painfully by its own hand.

    Your thoughts? @Starry @Lady X
    hey sorry...i haven't read the thread but i don't think i want what you just said
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  10. #70
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Well historically women were blamed for all of the world's ills (see: the Bible) and then during the twentieth century apparently black people were to blame for all crime, so what a refreshing turn of events for white men to finally take the blame for things they have done!

    Meanwhile, 70 percent of mass public shooters really are white. Now please stay on topic @tkae.
    You're guiding the topic, not me. You're the one who said there was something fucked up with white men these days. And you're still on that topic, so idk what you're talking about.
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