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  1. #101
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noll View Post
    Not enough.
    How about changing so that prisoners aren't free to roam around, killing eachother? Sounds like a good idea, I say.
    All subjective, but I think everyone who aren't psychopaths can be rehabilitated.
    Well I didn't create, nor will I honestly fix, the system, so 'not enough' isn't really going to convince me of anything different. If it truly isn't enough, you're welcome to come try your own hand at fixing things.
    It isn't really so easy as all that. But they do segregate prisons a lot to try to keep violence rates down.
    And it depends entirely on your definition of a psychopath. To me, someone willing to blow up a building in OKC, or fly a plane into a building, or start a cult that kills people, is a total psychopath. What do you feel is more acceptable terms of being a psychopath?
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  2. #102
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noll View Post
    Not enough.
    How about changing so that prisoners aren't free to roam around, killing eachother? Sounds like a good idea, I say.
    All subjective, but I think everyone who aren't psychopaths can be rehabilitated.
    Well I didn't create, nor will I honestly fix, the system, so 'not enough' isn't really going to convince me of anything different. If it truly isn't enough, you're welcome to come try your own hand at fixing things.
    It isn't really so easy as all that. But they do segregate prisons a lot to try to keep violence rates down.
    And it depends entirely on your definition of a psychopath. To me, someone willing to blow up a building in OKC, or fly a plane into a building, or start a cult that kills people, is a total psychopath. What do you feel is more acceptable terms of being a psychopath?
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  3. #103
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    I agree that narcissistic entitlement is part of the problem. I think a deeper problem is the way society brutalises men by imposing damaging ideals around masculinity and failing to properly nurture empathy in them.
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...s-murders.html
    Pollack attributes this gender disparity to society’s “code of masculinity,” or the process in which boys learn how to be men and disassociate from anything inherently feminine, like kindness and empathy. “Biologically, that kind of empathy is not gender-specific,” says Pollack, pointing to a kind of societal psychosis that defines men who show emotion as weak.
    This socialization is so pervasive, Pollack says, that it leads teachers, parents, and even health-care professionals to misinterpret or ignore abnormal behaviors in young men.
    Many of the men who commit these atrocities (and all violent crime) are depressed. Why does depression tend to create self-destructive impulses in women but outwardly destructive impulses in men? (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...men-depression) I don't think we have all the answers but gendered socialisation is definitely part of the problem. The whole "boys will be boys" permissiveness that allows so many men to grow up thinking it is their birthright to impose their will upon the world. Similarly, much that we recognise as depression in women comes about because it is not socially acceptable for them to display anger (or even agency), which they are therefore more likely to repress.

    The problem for both is fucked up gender roles.

    I don't think changing how we classify the crime or the penalty will really solve this problem, since it won't change any of the drivers of behaviour. I also think terrorism implies action on behalf of an ideology, so Anders Breivik is a terrorist, no question, but a lot of these men are just wounded animals, striking out, rather than goal-directed beings. In fact, delinquency in unsocialised males isn't restricted to Homo sapiens. Remember the delinquent male elephants who hadn't been taught how to control their aggressive impulses and turned into rhino murderers?

    Here is a story about an action that did prevent this kind of thing from happening.
    http://www.yesmagazine.org/peace-jus...-with-kindness

    You're probably going to say you find that sickening, and I also find a "pandering" kind of mentality rather galling, if I'm honest, but I guess you have to look at what is most effective.
    I really do think these men are broken, and part of the problem is that the whole concept of "manliness" is damaging to mental health.


    Thanks for this, Marm, it's a good topic for discussion and I'm sorry you are still having to put up with abusive bullshit from all the people who find you so threatening.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It's curious, but those mass shootings don't seem to occur where the large majority of so called "white Caucasian penises" are. I mean: in Europe.
    You're right, of course.
    They. never. happen. here.

    Greater access to guns just makes it likely to be a more frequent occurrence. It does nothing to explain the impulse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #104
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I am deeply ashamed of the people who think white men make up the majority of our population
    That's because "man" has both the connotation of "male" and "human" in everyday's speech.
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  5. #105
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It means in my very personal opinion if you go on a mass shooting and killing that I don't really consider you a citizen of the United States because I feel you clearly are making a statement that you don't intend to be one. It really had little to do with the OP outside of opinion.
    Do you think that if you break certain laws that you should lose your citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    One or two guys? No.. But 10+ people in a single pre-meditated incident? That's pretty different to me.. Murder IS a crime, but even then we have several levels of the same crime for a reason. Murder isn't black and white. If you're shooting up schools, or your place of work, and causing fear and chaos and panic and death and all of that, I consider that terrorism (for all my opinion is worth). It isn't a matter of who/what I like at all.. but there are people that have an entirely different level of danger and/or insanity than the rest of the major population. If someone goes into a crowded area and blows something up or just starts shooting, I consider them many things.. sick, and a terrorist, are definitely two of them. I don't put that in the same context as a stupid guy shooting another dude over something stupid. (I do, however, see gang violence and action in that same scope of things, but that's a different subject entirely.)
    Causing terror should not be a crime. If the person is committing a crime they can be charged with that. People don't cause terror because you can't make someone be afraid. You commit an act and they are either afraid or they aren't, but that happens within the individual. Very subjective. If those people are already crazy enough to do something like that knowing that they will be killed, then there isn't any benefit to tacking on more punishments except making ourselves feel good and look tough on crime/terrorism. Plus, there are plenty of people with PTSD resulting from everything ranging from gang violence/hostile environments to witnessing individual acts of killing over something stupid.

    My point isn't that there aren't subjective differences between crimes, it's that moral outrage is a horrible reason to add to/change criminal law.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Well I didn't create, nor will I honestly fix, the system, so 'not enough' isn't really going to convince me of anything different. If it truly isn't enough, you're welcome to come try your own hand at fixing things.
    I'm not a politician nor do I claim to be, I'm just a simple citizen, expressing my views against yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    What do you feel is more acceptable terms of being a psychopath?
    Obviously someone who has been diagnosed with Anti-social behavior (psychopathy, basically), most criminals don't have this disorder. Some of the most famous criminals have this disorder, but these are not standard-type criminals. To call someone a psychopath for commiting a crime, almost no matter the crime, is a little ignorant.

  7. #107
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Do you think that if you break certain laws that you should lose your citizenship?
    I think we already lose many privileges and rights afforded citizens when we break even smaller laws than the ones against murder and such.. People can lose their green cards over breaking the law, or their visas, or they can willingly give up citizenship to the US to become a citizen elsewhere.

    We've executed terrorists from our own soil. In fact, we've executed murderers who have killed far less. Instead, I propose for the criminal to lose citizenship rights and spend their time in a camp far away from the place they were terrorizing.

    Causing terror should not be a crime. If the person is committing a crime they can be charged with that. People don't cause terror because you can't make someone be afraid. You commit an act and they are either afraid or they aren't, but that happens within the individual. Very subjective. If those people are already crazy enough to do something like that knowing that they will be killed, then there isn't any benefit to tacking on more punishments except making ourselves feel good and look tough on crime/terrorism. Plus, there are plenty of people with PTSD resulting from everything ranging from gang violence/hostile environments to witnessing individual acts of killing over something stupid.
    I don't think wearing seat belts should be an offense as it literally harms no one besides myself--but even that I can be fined for. It absolutely makes sense in our current scope of things that terrorism is a crime. Intentions to do things that cause actual crimes as considered in our society just as bad as the actual crimes themselves.

    If you yell "Fire!" in a movie theater, and it is fake, it is considered a crime. Theoretically, you were only causing chaos and fear and disorder--but those things cause other issues as well. If we charged people purely for their actions and not their intended actions, then we might as well let those people that got caught hiring hit men before they did their job free.. because they really didn't kill anyone. And we might as well charge the people that damaged the movie theater trying to escape, because they committed property damage and that's a crime. Never mind it would have never happened without a fake Fire call. And the people who call fake bomb threats? Should those people just hang out and continue to disrupt the course of things over their sense of power trips and egos and such?

    If you bring your pet spider to your work place and people freak out, that's not really terrorism.. Even though you know people CAN be scared of spiders, it doesn't mean they will freak out if you have your own there. In comparison--people WILL fear for their lives. Every time. Without fail. It is human instinct. Threatening someone's life is just as bad to us as actually taking it, because there is a sense of unknown at the time if it will be taken. We're not talking making people afraid of something--but afraid to die. In that sense, I think that's far worse than most of the crimes people are charged with all the time.

    My point isn't that there aren't subjective differences between crimes, it's that moral outrage is a horrible reason to add to/change criminal law.
    It's a slippery slope with morals... Because they are really subjective. I don't know where to begin to draw the line for this--but it's a bit idealistic and outside of my scope. I can only comment on what I see and how we are versus how I feel.

    Because to me, the intention to kill is a moral wrong. No one actually died when they were caught--and who knows, they could have changed their mind about it last minute, but it's still wrong to me to just... let that person go and think nothing bad will happen again.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
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  8. #108
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noll View Post
    I'm not a politician nor do I claim to be, I'm just a simple citizen, expressing my views against yours.
    Obviously someone who has been diagnosed with Anti-social behavior (psychopathy, basically), most criminals don't have this disorder. Some of the most famous criminals have this disorder, but these are not standard-type criminals. To call someone a psychopath for commiting a crime, almost no matter the crime, is a little ignorant.
    I'm not talking about almost no matter the crime. I am talking about a very particular set of crimes--massive killings of strangers and unknown people. I'm not even talking about gang-on-gang crimes (as I said, thats a whole other can of worms) or group against group crimes. I am talking someone blowing up a building like the way the OKC bomber did. The way the guys that knocked for the WTCs did.

    I'm talking mass executions of people who may or may not even be involved for someone's own personal views and morals, politically and/or religiously. I don't find it ignorant to consider people who would do these things psychopaths.

    Maybe I'm speaking from a jaded perspective. But when you've really seen someone who absolutely wanted you dead while also knowing absolutely nothing about you, you realize that there are some people that truly do just want to cause as much harm and chaos and pain towards others as possible. That what they want outweighs anything--the value of life, peace, and all those other things.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  9. #109
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    Here is a story about an action that did prevent this kind of thing from happening.
    http://www.yesmagazine.org/peace-jus...-with-kindness

    You're probably going to say you find that sickening, and I also find a "pandering" kind of mentality rather galling, if I'm honest, but I guess you have to look at what is most effective.
    I really do think these men are broken, and part of the problem is that the whole concept of "manliness" is damaging to mental health.
    I don't find this sickening at all and I believe this is actually the long term solution for all sorts of crime. Thanks for sharing the article!

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  10. #110
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    As a white American, I used to resent what I saw as racial minorities making everything about race and thought that if we all just stopped talking about race that everyone would be treated equally.

    And then I really did research and thought carefully about history. And I realized that it has been in fact white people who historically have made things about race in this country. If black people, for an example, explain that they feel people are treated differently according to their race, then they are reacting to what (normally) white people have been pushing upon them for hundreds of years.

    When people bring race into an equation, it’s not that they are making a situation that is equal all about race—the truth is that what race you are in this country does affect how you’re treated, and people are only being honest when they call it out.

    Why is it misandry when someone says a statistic about men that is factual and tries to reason on this statistic? It’s true that the vast majority of these crimes are done by men . It’s not prejudice to acknowledge that and try to figure out why.

    Marm, it’s a shame that too many of the comments have been people being butthurt instead of actually talking about your theory. And your note that no one said anything (with the exception of one person) about the negative statistic about black people was spot-on.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

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