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  1. #91
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    I am deeply ashamed of the people who think white men make up the majority of our population, when women of all races make up 51 percent of the population. White men are 32 percent of our U.S. population.

    Why is no one verifying this before saying I am a racist or sexist.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    http://www.livescience.com/21787-pre...shootings.html

    I find this article interesting and @Marmotini while I don't have the time to go into it at present, I don't see you as racist or sexist; only as someone trying to sort through the madness. At any rate, I read this article on my lunch break and think it has validity in some respects. I definitely think that these killers get too much media coverage and attention and it fuels others who are on the edge to mimic the crime or even "top" it so that their names will be remembered. I think it may be the ultimate expression of total self-absorbtion or rather, I feel like society glamorizes this type of behavior and encourages it all the while claiming to condemn it. The way to totally discourage it would be to give the perpetrator no "glory" [even negative glory is glory] whatsoever. To say that their names aren't worth mentioning and instead of making it all about the killers, make it all about the victims. To spotlight the victims and glamorize them and say something along the lines of "an un-known gunman" or to somehow find a way to minimize the glory. I wish that all such people's names would be stricken from history and that they would die unknown.
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  3. #93
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Now before any naive people suggest this is about mental illness, you need to check your statistics on mentally ill women and non-white men, who are much less likely to randomly kill in public spaces. So much so that to me "mental illness" seems like a bleeding heart irrational cop out.

    [hostile comment removed]

    It's terrorism, plain and simple. It's terrorism in a pathetic attempt to glorify the self.

    White male terrorists who shoot innocent people for no good reason should be captured alive and taken to terrorist prison camps, just like their Jihadist counterparts. To do anything less is naive stupidity and racism.
    I think it's quite disgusting how the the idea of "terrorism" has morphed in the last decade and a half. If you want to excuse any behavior against a person, label them a terrorist and their act terrorism. Also, I think your idea of the ease of detaining an active shooter alive might be fantasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    They clearly are not citizens of the US outside of birth rights
    What does this mean? If you harm fellow citizens that you aren't a citizen?

    Murder is already a crime. You don't need to tack on extra shit because you especially don't like these groups/individuals. The problem with American culture now a days and the laws that result from it is that people want revenge. No one wants to fundamentally solve problems. The amount of horrible legislation resulting from terrorist attacks in the U.S. is arguably far more damaging than what any terrorist has actually accomplished. The reason why these crimes are a big deal is that it makes people who are normally sheltered from violence feel vulnerable. The truth is one or two guys being murdered is virtually nothing in the scope of murders in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    4. We really don't have the means and ways to rehabilitate terrorists. I mean, their entire premise is that the way we do things is wrong and immoral and that they will literally go to heaven by destroying this evil plague on the world. Any sort of rehab we would do would undoubtedly be ethnocentric in nature.. and thus, not really effective.
    The government makes virtually zero attempt to rehabilitate anyone, terrorist or otherwise, so it doesn't matter. The justice system is really about the appearance of action, money, and winning votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    While I agree with most of what you say, @Blackmail! has very little concept of how white killers become celebrities in this country while black men just get put in jail unless they are rappers. If you are a white man, it's enough just to commit a spectacular murder.
    This is more about socio-economic status than race. When poor white people commit murder or are murdered no one gives a shit either. The news is about sensationalism and you can't sensationalize things that happen all over the place every day.


    Also, I definitely don't think anyone should go around murdering anyone and I feel bad for the TSA guy that died, but ultimately the TSA is one of those horrible decisions resulting from terrorist attacks. They are really only so huge to provide an illusion of safety. The cost of maintaining the current size of the TSA is ridiculous for what they actually accomplish (not much).
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  4. #94
    amateur cartographer kquirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kquirk View Post
    I'm sorry, I may have missed it. What is the solution to the public shooting problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Now before any naive people suggest this is about mental illness, you need to check your statistics on mentally ill women and non-white men, who are much less likely to randomly kill in public spaces. So much so that to me "mental illness" seems like a bleeding heart irrational cop out.

    [hostile comment removed]

    It's terrorism, plain and simple. It's terrorism in a pathetic attempt to glorify the self.

    White male terrorists who shoot innocent people for no good reason should be captured alive and taken to terrorist prison camps, just like their Jihadist counterparts. To do anything less is naive stupidity and racism.
    Is the solution to public shootings to treat surviving shooters like we would foreign terrorists? Have we solved the problem of foreign terrorism by instituting "terrorist prison camps"?
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I am deeply ashamed of the people who think white men make up the majority of our population, when women of all races make up 51 percent of the population. White men are 32 percent of our U.S. population.

    Why is no one verifying this before saying I am a racist or sexist.
    Eh, seems like it might be the consequence of people believing that being a minority means you're oppressed.

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I am deeply ashamed of the people who think white men make up the majority of our population, when women of all races make up 51 percent of the population. White men are 32 percent of our U.S. population.

    Why is no one verifying this before saying I am a racist or sexist.
    Your statement is true.

    (1) About 70% of the shooters are white men, while only 32% of our population is.

    Another true statement is that:
    (2) 99% of the shooters are men, while only 50% of the population.

    Another true statement is that:
    (3) Asian Males are about 9% of the shooters, while only 3% of the population.

    But I think, the main story is statement (2), not (1) or (3). The statistical significance of (1) or (3) is not that clear. While the statistical significance of (2) is very clear.

    -----

    I should note that I agree with you that privilege plays a role. If you find a good source on the socioeconomics of the shooters, please let us know.

    Perhaps not a lot of people have gotten the question : "What are you?"

    But I've gotten that a lot. They are implicitly asking me "What race are you?". I tell them, I am Indian, and they breathe a sigh of relief. That initially seemed weird to me, but I am not at all surprised by it now.

    People often mistake me for both black and arabic. Neither, people find comfortable.

    Most immigrants from Asia (or really anywhere) come struggling to make a better life. But socially, Asians do enjoy a privelege in this country too. Perhaps not as much as whites, but it's there.

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  7. #97
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noll View Post
    1. Yes you can.
    We absolutely can not. As I said--I'd like to personally, but we treat our own differently than we treat others.

    2. Killed by who? Prisoners? Staff? Fix better jails.
    Oh, sure. We'll just fix jail, and everything will be better.
    Prisoners are generally more dangerous for other prisoners. I know several people who worked in jails that have had to go to great lengths before to ensure pedophiles were not killed or beaten to death because prisoners still have these sense of moral codes in them.

    3. Always, constantly about the money, I guess. We're all humans still, different standards doesn't justify cruel, violent behavior. It helps none and only serves as punishment, making only the mindless, revenge-driven brutes happy.
    Always.

    4. That sounds a bit pessimistic. How can you be 100% sure it's 100% impossible 100% of the time? It isn't, unless they're complete psychopaths. Terrorist criminals, like 'normal' criminals are most likely misguided and confused, mistreated, peer pressure and the like. Harsh upbringings, bad government (no education etc) and terrible people is mostly what creates a criminal, a need for power does too. And to be honest terrorrism isn't THAT much of an issue than governments like to tell us they are. Terrorism is no different from any other crime, it's all the same.
    I am not sure that terrorists cannot be rehabilitated. I am sure that there is a line that society draws that says, "Even if we try, there are some crimes so massive and destructive that we just cannot trust those people to be on their own anymore." And since we're drawing those lines (however much populations and publics may or may not agree with where they are drawn) I do not see our government wasting time, efforts, and money trying to rehab people that they aren't willing to release into the general populations anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    What does this mean? If you harm fellow citizens that you aren't a citizen?
    It means in my very personal opinion if you go on a mass shooting and killing that I don't really consider you a citizen of the United States because I feel you clearly are making a statement that you don't intend to be one. It really had little to do with the OP outside of opinion.

    Murder is already a crime. You don't need to tack on extra shit because you especially don't like these groups/individuals. The problem with American culture now a days and the laws that result from it is that people want revenge. No one wants to fundamentally solve problems. The amount of horrible legislation resulting from terrorist attacks in the U.S. is arguably far more damaging than what any terrorist has actually accomplished. The reason why these crimes are a big deal is that it makes people who are normally sheltered from violence feel vulnerable. The truth is one or two guys being murdered is virtually nothing in the scope of murders in the U.S.
    One or two guys? No.. But 10+ people in a single pre-meditated incident? That's pretty different to me.. Murder IS a crime, but even then we have several levels of the same crime for a reason. Murder isn't black and white. If you're shooting up schools, or your place of work, and causing fear and chaos and panic and death and all of that, I consider that terrorism (for all my opinion is worth). It isn't a matter of who/what I like at all.. but there are people that have an entirely different level of danger and/or insanity than the rest of the major population. If someone goes into a crowded area and blows something up or just starts shooting, I consider them many things.. sick, and a terrorist, are definitely two of them. I don't put that in the same context as a stupid guy shooting another dude over something stupid. (I do, however, see gang violence and action in that same scope of things, but that's a different subject entirely.)

    The government makes virtually zero attempt to rehabilitate anyone, terrorist or otherwise, so it doesn't matter. The justice system is really about the appearance of action, money, and winning votes.
    I'd agree there entirely. But if we're not rehabilitating our own, you can bet we're not going to even look twice at rehabilitating those outside of our own. The OKC bomber was put to death and he was a citizen and a veteran. I don't think we're going to be spending any efforts rehabilitating any foreign terrorists anytime soon.
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  8. #98
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    But I think, the main story is statement (2), not (1) or (3). The statistical significance of (1) or (3) is not that clear. While the statistical significance of (2) is very clear.
    This is what I was getting at.. To me, 32% is a significant population piece. Paired with the mostly-men-are-violent statistic, it just seems to make sense that 70% are white males. It isn't like 95% of terrorists are white males or anything.. You're taking a much smaller chunk of the bigger populations (there are much more white males than there are white males who have committed terrorist-like acts) so the numbers are going to be more skewed but this is why I still think race has little significance in the matter.

    It would be alarming if, say, 70-80% of violent shootings and such were caused by asians, or black people, etc. Because to have a smaller chunk of the population reflected in much larger proportions in the subset of the population? It is a little significant. Majority staying the majority in the subset seems normal to me though.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    We absolutely can not. As I said--I'd like to personally, because it's just cheaper and if we're going to be all about money anyways why not go all the way with it--but America still has at least an illusion of decency. We're going to treat our own terrorists way better than another country's.
    Not enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Oh, sure. We'll just fix jail, and everything will be better.
    Prisoners are generally more dangerous for other prisoners. I know several people who worked in jails that have had to go to great lengths before to ensure pedophiles were not killed or beaten to death because prisoners still have these sense of moral codes in them.
    How about changing so that prisoners aren't free to roam around, killing eachother? Sounds like a good idea, I say.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I am not sure that terrorists cannot be rehabilitated. I am sure that there is a line that society draws that says, "Even if we try, there are some crimes so massive and destructive that we just cannot trust those people to be on their own anymore." And since we're drawing those lines (however much populations and publics may or may not agree with where they are drawn) I do not see our government wasting time, efforts, and money trying to rehab people that they aren't willing to release into the general populations anytime soon.
    All subjective, but I think everyone who aren't psychopaths can be rehabilitated.

  10. #100
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Did you even read my fucking post about the difference between how black, Arabic and white sociopaths are regarded differently in this country? Or did you just pick what made you feel the most snide?

    There are multiple sources where you can observe the 70 percent of mass public shooters versus 30 percent of general population statistics. I didn't.make the.official number up.


    I have learned something very important and disturbing about some of the members of this forum after reading the response to this thread.
    I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm merely pointing out that the case you have provided is weak and your views appear prejudicial.

    I read all of the posts, attempting to understand what you were saying and to wade through whatever facts were presented. I also scanned a few related articles on the topic online. At first, I guessed there must be something to what you were saying. I mean why else would you say it. I couldn't find any evidence to back it up here or elsewhere though. There isn't much evidence to support what you essentially stated - which is that white middle class males are disproportionately represented in the population of shooters. So, if that isn't true, then the premise of the entire thread isn't valid.

    If you had said that all people who were guilty of these mass shootings should be treated like terrorists, that would be one thing. You didn't say that though. You specifically called out the white middle class males. Why do that? When I read comments such as the following, it makes me wonder if you might want to consider your own attitudes towards class, sex and race and whether or not they might be coloring your views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    While I agree with most of what you say, @Blackmail! has very little concept of how white killers become celebrities in this country while black men just get put in jail unless they are rappers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    White male terrorists who shoot innocent people for no good reason should be captured alive and taken to terrorist prison camps, just like their Jihadist counterparts. To do anything less is naive stupidity and racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    If they feared harsher punishment rather than instant death and anti-hero fame....seriously if black men were doing this instead of white men, there would probably be KKK lynchings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Did you not understand my post? White middle class men are the perp 19 out of 20 times....and culturally they are not punished here like African American criminals and Middle Eastern terrorists.....instead society says what is wrong with poor Johnny.

    My argument is that Johnny is not poor, he is well off, bored, and deeply upset he isn't dating Scarlet Johannson and not elected president of his new tiny libertarian kingdom. No, Johnny is a terrorist who wants fame and individuality at any price, and he must be stopped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Um no, the people committing this PARTICULAR CRIME are usually white males, just as most drive by shooting were done by African American men. I am sure that doesn't offend any of you though. If I tell you gang violence involving drive bys in the 90s were majority African Americans, you would be like sure yeah let's discuss sociology. But since white men mostly commit this crime, you all would prefer to get your collective panties in a wad, even after I clarified that I never implied that white men are like this in general, but the ones who are need to be dealt with realistically and severely.

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