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  1. #61
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Mal, from what I've read of this thread, you're being a bit contrary just for the sake of it. You like or agree with this man and take offense to others being offended by him.
    I like intellectual takes such as his. But I don't agree that something is "sinful" just because the BIble or someone's church says it is. I can't abide by the LDS church's views on anything, as being neither a past, present, nor future member of said church. Card was just very liberal for his day, and members of his own church disagreed with his views on homosexuality.

    In fact, I even stated above that I favor gay marriage if this reduces the amount of promiscuity in the gay "community." Promiscuity increases the risk of spreading STDs.

    But I disfavor the idea of an LGBT "community" (or any other political "community"), not just because it causes the spread of another "disease" known as group-think and all the intellectual distortion that plays along with it. In this case, those gays who are "outed" are forced into an identity "community" they may not want to belong to for various reasons, for example, they may not want the gay lifestyle and favor conversion. Identity politics in the gay "community" absolutely opposes such conversion, thus stifling the free-will of those who want to convert. (Whether or not they can convert is irrelevant.)

    Being part of such a community is an all-or-nothing affair which breeds black-and-white thinking along with animosity against those who disagree with the group's belief systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    I dislike his prejudiced views and the insensitivity he's expressed through his words to spread those views, and therefor do not like him, and so I won't be supporting him financially or giving him any of the benefits that comes with publicity. I don't need to cite a reason for why I don't like him, despite what you feel you're entitled to. He offends me, I find him reprehensible, and that's the end of it.
    "I don't need to cite a reason." "He offends me." That exemplifies the unreasonable emotionalism that goes along with group-think.

    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    The fact that so many others feel the same way is more likely to mean that he's coming across that way to the public than that he's the victim of a tribalistic society. You're searching for the effect to fit the cause instead of just accepting the easy correlation.
    People have given you answers to your question, and, based on your preparedness in rebutting their answers, you knew what their answers were going to be. You're just looking to be right, not to get answers to your question, and I don't respect that.
    Whether that's true or not, at least I've cited my reasoning - can you cite yours?
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  2. #62
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I will say that, while the existence of group-think is a possibility within the LGBT community, it can also certainly be found in other forms as well, like political parties and individuals who were at least one time associated with religious communities. I've never really see you voice a political opinion that wasn't in line with the positions of the Republican party, or that would be considered controversial on a more right-leaning forum, for instance.

    That being said, Card's views would not stop me from borrowing his book from the library, and I believe I would be capable of judging the book on it's own merits rather than on the views of the author. I do get annoyed by reviews where the political views of the creator take precedence over the content (which is not to say there can never be a correlation).

    People are perfectly willing to do that for stuff that was made over 60 years ago, but if it's more current, they have a harder time with it.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #63
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I will say that, while the existence of group-think is a possibility within the LGBT community, it can also certainly be found in other forms as well, like political parties and individuals who were at least one time associated with religious communities. I've never really see you voice a political opinion that wasn't in line with the positions of the Republican party, or that would be considered controversial on a more right-leaning forum, for instance.

    That being said, Card's views would not stop me from borrowing his book from the library, and I believe I would be capable of judging the book on it's own merits rather than on the views of the author. I do get annoyed by reviews where the political views of the creator take precedence over the content (which is not to say there can never be a correlation).

    People are perfectly willing to do that for stuff that was made over 60 years ago, but if it's more current, they have a harder time with it.
    People don't know what it was like before group-think became a major social phenomenon. These people are just very youthful. They are the same ones who think Obama should fix a problem with medical insurance that didn't exist when I was growing up, when medical paid for everything and big gubmint kept its damn dirty hands away.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  4. #64
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I like intellectual takes such as his. But I don't agree that something is "sinful" just because the BIble or someone's church says it is. I can't abide by the LDS church's views on anything, as being neither a past, present, nor future member of said church. Card was just very liberal for his day, and members of his own church disagreed with his views on homosexuality.
    What, Card is "very liberal in his day" simply because he said, "let's not stone gay people for having evil vile non-het sex" and suggested "loving them" while in the very next breath suggesting they be shunned from the church community and accosted by the values of the rest of the religious community until they changed their behavior? (He paints them in the most negative ways possible, directly fueling resentment and disgust, and cuts them off from community, so the net result comes down to, "Okay, am I for murdering gays in the street, or just killing them out of my community and ostractizing them to isolation simply because they're gay?")

    If that makes one a standard bearer for liberalism in that style of community, that's a pretty scary place to live. And the reality is that, regardless of how the two views compared in relation to each other, both are typically very destuctive and not really resulting in any genuine difference in outcome. So now more gay people commit suicide than are murdered on the street; same outcome, except the religious community escapes some of the culpability because they didn't directly pull the trigger.

    In fact, I even stated above that I favor gay marriage if this reduces the amount of promiscuity in the gay "community." Promiscuity increases the risk of spreading STDs.
    True (and I think it would be fairer to the gay community, since for decades the religious folks have damned them for behavior that is likely more of a resulting of extreme social oppression and ostracization and unfair restrictions on genuine standard needs in human beings), although then my first thought is, "Okay, has het marriage reduced promiscuity at all?" I suppose it has, on some levels.

    But I disfavor the idea of an LGBT "community" (or any other political "community"), not just because it causes the spread of another "disease" known as group-think and all the intellectual distortion that plays along with it. In this case, those gays who are "outed" are forced into an identity "community" they may not want to belong to for various reasons, for example, they may not want the gay lifestyle and favor conversion. Identity politics in the gay "community" absolutely opposes such conversion, thus stifling the free-will of those who want to convert. (Whether or not they can convert is irrelevant.)

    Being part of such a community is an all-or-nothing affair which breeds black-and-white thinking along with animosity against those who disagree with the group's belief systems.
    While that might be a discussion worth having at some point, we're not likely at that stage yet. It's like the foreign orphan kid with a bum leg managing to get partway back to his feet after the mob has been kicking him and shoving him down, and you kick his crutch out from under him because he shouldn't be overly dependent on it, while leaving the mob untouched.

    First you disperse the mob and get someone accepted into the community, so they're not longer the whipping child, and then you work on reducing the need for coping mechanisms you feel are resulting in negative outcomes. You don't take coping mechanisms away before resolving the very situation that necessitated him. I consider you smart enough to see this, so then I'm left wondering why you're focusing on the "crutch" and not on the abuse?

    "I don't need to cite a reason." "He offends me." That exemplifies the unreasonable emotionalism that goes along with group-think.
    I think it's been explained in far different terms throughout this thread. I've even touched back at it a bit in this post. I'm not sure why you are seeing Card as a victim... aside from the argument about whether this movie should be boycotted because the guy who wrote the book has views that some see as socially destructive.

    As far as that question goes, I think everyone needs to examine it for themselves. When I tried to discuss emotions raised by the movie on FB yesterday, one of my friends simply said, "I'm not paying to see the movie because the author is an ass." Which I find annoying; my discussion wasn't about political views, it was about how the movie impacted you if you happened to see it. If you don't want to see the movie because you hate the writer, that's great; but what does that have to do with my topic? Everything seems so political nowadays. I can't even eat a chicken sandwich anymore, ya know?
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  5. #65
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    People don't know what it was like before group-think became a major social phenomenon. These people are just very youthful. They are the same ones who think Obama should fix a problem with medical insurance that didn't exist when I was growing up, when medical paid for everything and big gubmint kept its damn dirty hands away.
    It's a different world than when baby boomers grew up. I'm genuinely surprised you haven't noticed that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #66
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I like intellectual takes such as his. But I don't agree that something is "sinful" just because the BIble or someone's church says it is. I can't abide by the LDS church's views on anything, as being neither a past, present, nor future member of said church. Card was just very liberal for his day, and members of his own church disagreed with his views on homosexuality.

    In fact, I even stated above that I favor gay marriage if this reduces the amount of promiscuity in the gay "community." Promiscuity increases the risk of spreading STDs.

    But I disfavor the idea of an LGBT "community" (or any other political "community"), not just because it causes the spread of another "disease" known as group-think and all the intellectual distortion that plays along with it. In this case, those gays who are "outed" are forced into an identity "community" they may not want to belong to for various reasons, for example, they may not want the gay lifestyle and favor conversion. Identity politics in the gay "community" absolutely opposes such conversion, thus stifling the free-will of those who want to convert. (Whether or not they can convert is irrelevant.)
    It's interesting that you use quotes around "community" but still seem to consider it a monolith of group think. It's also telling that you are assuming there is a single gay "lifestyle." Is that a single young gay guy in an urban center? A pair of lesbians with a dog and a kid in the suburbs? A divorced dad, his son, and his partner raising a kid in the country? A middle-aged lesbian taking care of her mom with dementia? A single trans women with a fiancé moving into an executive role at her company in an exurb? I looks like (from that outside) that you are collapsing a very diverse, sprawling group down to a single set of political beliefs and a single lifestyle. How is that urban/suburban/rural (whatever it is) "heterosexual lifestyle" working for you?

    As far as conversion therapy, I think you'll generally find that gay people don't want people to advertise false hope and damaging therapies as scientifically effective. In particular, reparative therapy being inflicted on kids and teens against their will is seen as bad. Adults choosing to seek reparative therapy is often seen as misguided and damaging, but it's not so actively opposed. At most, I think there's general wish to have those therapies labeled as unscientifically proven or ineffective so that people go into such situations with their eyes open. Some people will choose staying in the closet and/or being celibate. That's their own choice.

    It's not about forcing someone to come out, or forcing someone into a particular lifestyle. People will deal with their own lives as they see fit, and come out in their own time. Still, a number of us have been both in the closet and out of it, have tried various kinds of therapies to "cure" ourselves, etc. We know both sides of the story, and don't wish others to torture themselves longer than they must, or have them believe in ineffective therapies that are likely to cause additional damage rather than helping.

    A lot of LGBT folks (like me) aren't for forcing people out of the closet, especially when there's no hypocrisy involved. When someone is "wide stancing" it in airport bathroom stalls while supporting anti-gay legislation, or hiring a "luggage lifting" boy from rentboy.com while being an expert witness against gay rights; I think there can be some justification (however murky)... although that makes me queasy, even so. I'd rather people be given a chance to choose for themselves when and how to come out (if they do).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Being part of such a community is an all-or-nothing affair which breeds black-and-white thinking along with animosity against those who disagree with the group's belief systems.
    And again with the collapsing and simplifying. Which part is black or white? I have friends who saw Ender's Game this weekend and liked it (some who said "meh"). Some gay and straight friends didn't see it because of Card's politics. I think it's arguable either way. I'll probably wait to see it on Neflix or Amazon streaming, but that's more because I'm lazy about going to the movie theater than anything else. (Even though I admit I'm not eager to buy more of Card's books.)

    There are gay people who are for ENDA, and some who aren't. While there's a lower percentage LGBT folks who are Republican than in the general population it's not the case that all LGBT folks are card-carrying Liberals or Democrats. If you find it shocking that fewer LGBT folks are Republican, I suggest you look at Republican messaging and fundraising over the last few decades.

    I think where you will find animosity, it's against ideas that:

    • LGBT people and relationships are inherently evil, flawed and lesser
    • LGBT people can and should be fixed/cured
    • Because they are evil/flawed/lesser, LGBT folks should be required to hide their lives and relationships (and accept their lesser status)

    Beyond those points, I think you'd find it harder of find a lot of consensus. If you find if shocking that LGBT people are against those points... well, empathize a little.


    I suspect that (to some degree) you are responding to vitriol posted by LGBT folks on facebook and elsewhere. If so, I sympathize and I sometimes find both the language and sentiment to be extreme and off-putting. I have acquaintances that post things painting all Christians (or all religious people) with the same damning brush, all conservatives as evil, stupid and ill-intentioned, and all people who aren't for gay marriage as hating homophobic bigots. (I find some of the spokesmen of the New Atheists off-putting for similar reasons.)

    I think reality is more complex than that. I understand (firsthand, to some degree) where the hurt and anger is coming from, however poorly it may be expressed and directed. Still, I don't believe in robbing humanity and complexity from others, even those I disagree with. I'm certainly not perfect about seeing the perspective of others, but I attempt (not always successfully) to see things from other viewpoints. It helps that I've had a journey in my lifetime (from Southern small town conservative religious fundamentalist to Northeastern urban gay liberal). I sometimes find myself defending Southerners and religious conservatives to coworkers (ironically enough), just because I know how people of good intention can honestly believe such things.

    I'm not a saint and still get angry when I think about another LGBT kid ending up rejected, homeless and/or depressed/suicidal because he or she heard the negative message about how evil/sinful/unacceptable being LGBT is. Orson Scott Card has invested time and resources propagating such messages. I prefer not to fund such efforts, all things being equals.

    I compare Card to the admittedly younger Brandon Sanderson (another Mormon speculative fiction writer), who isn't for gay marriage but has consistently spoken about gay people with respect and a certain amount of empathy. I have continued to buy his books even if I don't agree with his political views. I'm okay with principled political disagreement, even when I disagree with it.

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