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  1. #41
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I'll have to let my liberal/conservative, urban/rural, religious/areligious/anti-religious, political/apolitical, restrained/outrageous LGBT friends and acquaintances know. They'll be happy to hear another person has slotted them into a group designation, judged them based on limited information, and found them wanting.
    @Lark used the greatest term to describe it: "identity politics." Your friends may be lesbian, gay, bi or trans - but do they subscribe to identity politics?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #42
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    @Lark used the greatest term to describe it: "identity politics." Your friends may be lesbian, gay, bi or trans - but do they ascribe to identity politics?
    Some do, some don't. If you ask people who are involved in politicking for LGBT issues, they'll probably emphasize that aspect of their identity. (Just like someone who is politically active for women's rights, minority rights, etc, probably sees those things as an important part of their identity.) Ones that don't, probably less so.

    Sometimes I feel that others make the gay thing a bigger deal than it inherently has to be. Getting cut off from my family for years, feeling forced out of my religious religious denomination of my upbringing and being judged because of my sexual orientation made it a bigger deal to me. If it had been treated as "no big deal" then I think it would have been a lesser aspect. I suspect that LGBT kids growing up today will see it as a lesser part of their identity than people of my generation.

    Still, I think I identify just as much as a computer (and otherwise) geek, someone who grew up in Texas, a Gen-Xer, etc as I do as a gay person. And none of those capture all of who I am, any more than "INFP" does.

    The difference is that I don't hear people on talking about how being a computer geek is the result of sexual abuse, or that being from Texas makes one unable to love another truly, or that being a Gen-Xer makes me unfit for membership in any honest religious community.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    @Lark used the greatest term to describe it: "identity politics." Your friends may be lesbian, gay, bi or trans - but do they subscribe to identity politics?
    Yup.

    For a lot of people their sexual orientation isnt their whole life but there's a vocal minority for whom it is, I think that's where the problem is, people who're likely to be extremely vexed about you not giving a shit even.

    The world has been through this before, other criteria, class, status, ideology but the lessons arent learned. Its just on repeat.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Some do, some don't. If you ask people who are involved in politicking for LGBT issues, they'll probably emphasize that aspect of their identity. (Just like someone who is politically active for women's rights, minority rights, etc, probably sees those things as an important part of their identity.) Ones that don't, probably less so.

    Sometimes I feel that others make the gay thing a bigger deal than it inherently has to be. Getting cut off from my family for years, feeling forced out of my religious religious denomination of my upbringing and being judged because of my sexual orientation made it a bigger deal to me. If it had been treated as "no big deal" then I think it would have been a lesser aspect. I suspect that LGBT kids growing up today will see it as a lesser part of their identity than people of my generation.

    Still, I think I identify just as much as a computer (and otherwise) geek, someone who grew up in Texas, a Gen-Xer, etc as I do as a gay person. And none of those capture all of who I am, any more than "INFP" does.

    The difference is that I don't hear people on talking about how being a computer geek is the result of sexual abuse, or that being from Texas makes one unable to love another truly, or that being a Gen-Xer makes me unfit for membership in any honest religious community.
    Are Gen-Xers mentioned in the Bible?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #45
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yup.

    For a lot of people their sexual orientation isnt their whole life but there's a vocal minority for whom it is, I think that's where the problem is, people who're likely to be extremely vexed about you not giving a shit even.
    That's a bit strong. I would call it being permanently agnostic on the issue; however, I am concerned about the rise of tribalistic group-think in society. I had a dose of it today, and it tasted nasty.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #46
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    I don't care, just as long as my dick doesn't swing the wrong way, I couldn't give a hoot about which side your own chooses to go.

    Maybe sexual perversion could factor in creating alien races, like when the fallen angels supposedly came to earth and had sex with a bunch of hot women.


  7. #47
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Are Gen-Xers mentioned in the Bible?
    I'm sure one could warp a few verses in Revelations as prophecy of the Gen-X times, if it's important to you. I'm not sure what you are getting at by that response, though. That because there are some negative verses about same-sex activities (of some kind) in the Bible, that means... what? That it's inherently important? That it should be stamped out of churches? That LGBT people should take whatever treatment they get? What are you saying, exactly, there?

    My statement was an attempt to answer "why do some LGBT people treat being LGBT as important?" And my response was "because direct and indirect experience in this society has shown that it is." If you had to leave your church because of eye color, if you could be fired because of your eye color in 33 states, if you were cut off from your family because of eye color (okay, that one doesn't make much sense), it might seem a more important factor to you than it does today.

    Even given all that, there's no unified LGBT community. It's a diverse group as it is, and I suspect that if being LGBT were treated as no big deal, it'd be an even more diverse group without some often shared experiences of adversity. I'm okay with that.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That's a bit strong. I would call it being permanently agnostic on the issue; however, I am concerned about the rise of tribalistic group-think in society. I had a dose of it today, and it tasted nasty.
    I dont like groupthink either, though I think its most insidious when its not even recognised as such.

    Orwell wrote about how he didnt think domestic fascism in the UK would be resisted because it wouldnt be recognised for what it was, people would be looking out for swastikas when it'd come in the shape of the lion and unicorn (british national/royal symbols).

    Most of the greatest offenders when it comes to groupthink these days dont believe they are responsible for it or engaging in it, they think they're positively doing great things with universal benefice. Although that's probably all part of it and one of the hallmarks.

    Your experience though is likely to become more widespread, people wont buy arguments which seem to go against the grain of the simplist and most reductive "be nice to everyone" arguments until something happens and they wind up thinking "hey, maybe that so and so had something all alone". I just really hope when that time comes that the "so and so" in question isnt some fascistic loon hater.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I don't care, just as long as my dick doesn't swing the wrong way, I couldn't give a hoot about which side your own chooses to go.

    Maybe sexual perversion could factor in creating alien races, like when the fallen angels supposedly came to earth and had sex with a bunch of hot women.

    That lead to the Nephilim though, which generally isnt considered a great thing for humankind in any of the sources which talk about that.

  10. #50
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Are Gen-Xers mentioned in the Bible?
    There is much greater reason for Christians to oppose remarriage after divorce than to oppose homosexuality, assuming that one prioritizes the New Testament and what Jesus is thought to have directly said-most denominations seem to have decided, on some justification or another, that the former isn't such a big deal after all.

    That said, I don't think someone holding to traditional religious or moral beliefs about sexuality and subsequently opposing gay marriage makes them an asshole or a bigot whose work should be boycotted (especially not during an extraordinarily quick societal turnaround on the issue). I'm less sympathetic towards people who still think sexual activity between consenting adults should be criminalized, but I don't consider them any worse than people who advocate for criminalizing 'hate speech'. Now, people who would disown a loved one* over such an issue (such as when my great-grandfather was disowned by his family for marrying my previously divorced great-grandmother); people like that I'm downright hostile toward.

    *The apparent forgiveness of @Seymour in this regard is much more Christian, as I was raised to consider the term (by a religiously conservative mother), than the actions of his relatives.

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