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  1. #31
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Interesting. I've only read the first two of both Ender's and Bean's story arcs, and played the game Shadow Complex (which he wrote). Do you have any source with all of the instances aggregated?
    Unfortunately I don't. The best I can give you is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_S..._homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Funny you focus on judicial process as the determining factor here.

    I'm just looking at his values statements.
    Funnier is that it's what Card has been focusing on too. The impression I get is that he is saying that people should not hold his personal views against him as long as they are not illegal.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Here's the relevant section from the Salon article I linked to above:

    Bleck!
    Card stated that there was no homosexual/pedophile link made there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Who says they weren't already in Mormon church and hadn't already accepted Jesus into their hearts? Anyway, 1990 was a while back, and that was not the most conservative possible position at the time... that's one reason why I find his more recent position as a NOM board member to be more troubling.

    And I agree the Mormons have a right to define membership in their church how they like, even if I see it as damaging to people who grow Mormon and turn out to be gay.
    Card would reply that gay membership in the church is damaging to the church.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #33
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Here's the relevant section from the Salon article I linked to above:



    Bleck!
    Heh. I remember reading the wiki article to that one, Songmaster, and being weirded out by it.

    Cool, thanks for the info.

  4. #34
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Card stated that there was no homosexual/pedophile link made there.
    Even though in 2004 (Songmaster was publishing in 2000), Card stated:

    Quote Originally Posted by OSC
    The dark secret of homosexual society -- the one that dares not speak its name -- is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally.
    So, it's possible that Songmaster isn't a reflection of Card's beliefs in that respect, but he quite clearly had a belief that childhood abuse was a typical cause of homosexuality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Card would reply that gay membership in the church is damaging to the church.
    I can believe that he believes that.

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Yes, "moderate" is a political term. But Card believed in forgiving homosexuals and allowing them into his church after they have renounced their ways and accepted Jesus into their hearts.
    LOL.

    Of course. But then he is not really accepting "homosexuals," is he? No, he is accepting people who used to be practicing homosexuals but who have been straight-jacketed so that they behave and act like they believe just what he does. His church is homogeneous, not diverse.

    For example, let's say, I said to you, "Mal, I will be your friend. But you have to act like me and believe what I do, and if you don't, I will shun you and we cannot be friends." Can we ever truly be friends? Or am I just befriending myself, projected onto you?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Even though in 2004 (Songmaster was publishing in 2000), Card stated:



    So, it's possible that Songmaster isn't a reflection of Card's beliefs in that respect, but he quite clearly had a belief that childhood abuse was a typical cause of homosexuality.
    A typical cause, or a possible cause, but who knows how typical it is? Does anybody claim that homosexuality is purely based in genetics?

    It's impossible to gather stats on "dark secrets."

    I do know one homosexual couple, however, in which one of them said (disgustedly) that his partner likes young boys. Does that mean homosexual pedophilia runs rampant in the LGBT "community"?

    If the LGBT "community" tries to paint itself a rainbow, does that mean all is sweetness and light?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I can believe that he believes that.
    Yes, I just read it here:
    http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html
    And when I read the statements of those who claim to be both LDS and homosexual, trying to persuade the former community to cease making their membership contingent upon abandoning the latter, I wonder if they realize that the price of such "tolerance" would be, in the long run, the destruction of the Church.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    LOL.

    Of course. But then he is not really accepting "homosexuals," is he? No, he is accepting people who used to be practicing homosexuals but who have been straight-jacketed so that they behave and act like they believe just what he does. His church is homogeneous, not diverse.

    For example, let's say, I said to you, "Mal, I will be your friend. But you have to act like me and believe what I do, and if you don't, I will shun you and we cannot be friends." Can we ever truly be friends? Or am I just befriending myself, projected onto you?
    It ain't called "the straight and narrow" for nothin. (pun intended)
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #38
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Card wrote - "Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."

    This was a very moderate view back in 1990.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #39
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    The reason I brought this upon this forum comes from Facebook, where I discovered that the "LGBT community" is planning on skipping "Ender's Game" because of Card's religious views.

    I happen to be FB friends with a semi-famous gay author/comedian, who friended me a few months ago when I messaged him saying I liked his humor. I knew he was gay, but that doesn't bother me, it doesn't keep me from liking his humor or being fb friends.

    So he posts this thing today about banning "Ender's Game." I responded, and this started a long conversation about Card and gay kinds of stuff.

    What I discovered is that he's mostly friends with a group of like-minded people, obviously LGBT types; but the difference is that, being of semi-celeb status, he doesn't flame with a lot of insults, whereas his LGBT friends/defenders are irrational and big on flaming (probably in both senses of the word).

    He DOES, however, marginalize. I see this as part and parcel of his utter lack of individualism, his implicit belief in "group-think." And the fact that the LGBT community is, itself, kind of like a big church full of narrow-minded people, much like LDS.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #40
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    He DOES, however, marginalize. I see this as part and parcel of his utter lack of individualism, his implicit belief in "group-think." And the fact that the LGBT community is, itself, kind of like a big church full of narrow-minded people, much like LDS.
    I'll have to let my liberal/conservative, urban/rural, religious/areligious/anti-religious, political/apolitical, restrained/outrageous LGBT friends and acquaintances know. They'll be happy to hear another person has slotted them into a group designation, judged them based on limited information, and found them wanting.

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