User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 66

  1. #11
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    Here's an article that runs down some of Card's statements and stances about homosexuality over the years, and tries to look at related themes in his books. Card served on the board of the National Organization for Marriage (NOM), an anti-gay marriage group for a number of years (2009-2013). but quietly stepped down in July.

    His May 2013 statement about his changed stance was made during some negative publicity about the announcement that he would be authoring some Superman comics.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    I just read that article he wrote to the LDS church, and he very clearly states:

    1. Homosexuality is sin, and people who sexually sin in various ways are all required to abandon sin. (i.e., homosexuality is not legitimate, even in a monogamous responsible relationship). Note that when he puts homosexuality in this category, he is lumping it with incest, pedophilsm, beastiality, masturbation, adultery, promiscuity, and any other typical "sexual sin." He's saying it's of the same moral caliber.

    2. He specifically pings the "no one can serve two masters, what does Belial have to do with the servant of light?" verses, and thus sets up a dichotomy of the LDS community being the light and the homosexual "community" of being the dark.

    3. if someone does not confess their sin is a sin (AKA the typical homosexual person who believes they are not being sinful), then he is justified in calling them a fool, hypocrite, and sinner. he even describes them as God deceivers and liars.

    4. The Church has no room for those who would say homosexuality is okay. They are wolves in sheep's clothing and "devouring the flock."

    5. He does say violence is unacceptable -- that it's enough to denounce gays and drive them from the Church. (i.e., exclusion).

    6. They should be treated like "small children" (vs legitimate, responsible adults).

    7. He does say just what you said -- that gay people cannot be treated as equal citizens.

    8. One paragraph summing up his complicated doublespeak is, "The repentant homosexual must be met with forgiveness. Even hypocritical homosexuals must be treated individually with compassion. But the collective behavior of the hypocrites of homosexuality must be met with our most forceful arguments and our complete intolerance of their lies." How does this realistically occur, when the poles are defined as such extremes?

    There are some other condscending and patronizing comments there as well, in his "response to responses." He also makes it clear that he thinks his position is "exactly where it should be" between the poles; he goes on and on about this.

    I don't really consider, "Well, I was writing to a church audience" to be that compelling of an excuse. he certainly sounds as if he believes everything he says, and he is actively choosing to invest in these kinds of arguments to provide less-thoughtful people with fodder for their exclusionary behavior. When you paint an entire group of people as villainous and in fact antithetical to the very moral fiber of the human universe, then how can you expect your readers to not drift (or even plunge) into antagonism?

    So he doesn't want to criminalize homosexual behavior now that the laws have been changed. Whatever. his full comment: "Now that the law has changed (the decision was overturned in 2003) I have no interest in criminalizing homosexual acts and would never call for such a thing, any more than I wanted such laws enforced back when they were still on the books. But I stand by the main points of this essay, which concerns matters internal to the Mormon Church." So his entire attitudes are still what I've listed believe + all the stuff I just didn't feel like posting. People can decide how they feel about it.

    http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html

    ---

    Whatever. If you want to see the movie, see the movie -- he doesn't get a penny of it, although he'll probably pick up some residual book sales from the movie existing at all.


    ... Kind of a bummer about the Superman thing. Chris Sprouse bailed on the project? He's a great artist. I liked his stuff for Alan Moore w/ "Tom Strong."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    14,019

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Here's an article that runs down some of Card's statements and stances about homosexuality over the years, and tries to look at related themes in his books. Card served on the board of the National Organization for Marriage (NOM), an anti-gay marriage group for a number of years (2009-2013). but quietly stepped down in July.

    His May 2013 statement about his changed stance was made during some negative publicity about the announcement that he would be authoring some Superman comics.
    So he's just out to make money then?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    So he's just out to make money then?
    I don't know what he really believes now, in his heart of hearts... perhaps he had changed his mind previously but hadn't felt the need to tell anyone. Perhaps he was waiting to resign from NOM until a replacement could be found. No way to know.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    14,019

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I just read that article he wrote to the LDS church, and he very clearly states:

    1. Homosexuality is sin, and people who sexually sin in various ways are all required to abandon sin. (i.e., homosexuality is not legitimate, even in a monogamous responsible relationship). Note that when he puts homosexuality in this category, he is lumping it with incest, pedophilsm, beastiality, masturbation, adultery, promiscuity, and any other typical "sexual sin." He's saying it's of the same moral caliber.

    2. He specifically pings the "no one can serve two masters, what does Belial have to do with the servant of light?" verses, and thus sets up a dichotomy of the LDS community being the light and the homosexual "community" of being the dark.

    3. if someone does not confess their sin is a sin (AKA the typical homosexual person who believes they are not being sinful), then he is justified in calling them a fool, hypocrite, and sinner. he even describes them as God deceivers and liars.

    4. The Church has no room for those who would say homosexuality is okay. They are wolves in sheep's clothing and "devouring the flock."

    5. He does say violence is unacceptable -- that it's enough to denounce gays and drive them from the Church. (i.e., exclusion).

    6. They should be treated like "small children" (vs legitimate, responsible adults).

    7. He does say just what you said -- that gay people cannot be treated as equal citizens.

    8. One paragraph summing up his complicated doublespeak is, "The repentant homosexual must be met with forgiveness. Even hypocritical homosexuals must be treated individually with compassion. But the collective behavior of the hypocrites of homosexuality must be met with our most forceful arguments and our complete intolerance of their lies." How does this realistically occur, when the poles are defined as such extremes?

    There are some other condscending and patronizing comments there as well, in his "response to responses." He also makes it clear that he thinks his position is "exactly where it should be" between the poles; he goes on and on about this.

    I don't really consider, "Well, I was writing to a church audience" to be that compelling of an excuse. he certainly sounds as if he believes everything he says, and he is actively choosing to invest in these kinds of arguments to provide less-thoughtful people with fodder for their exclusionary behavior. When you paint an entire group of people as villainous and in fact antithetical to the very moral fiber of the human universe, then how can you expect your readers to not drift (or even plunge) into antagonism?

    So he doesn't want to criminalize homosexual behavior now that the laws have been changed. Whatever. his full comment: "Now that the law has changed (the decision was overturned in 2003) I have no interest in criminalizing homosexual acts and would never call for such a thing, any more than I wanted such laws enforced back when they were still on the books. But I stand by the main points of this essay, which concerns matters internal to the Mormon Church." So his entire attitudes are still what I've listed believe + all the stuff I just didn't feel like posting. People can decide how they feel about it.

    http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html


    ... Kind of a bummer about the Superman thing. Chris Sprouse bailed on the project? He's a great artist. I liked his stuff for Alan Moore w/ "Tom Strong."
    "Forceful arguments" made against a community are still just arguments.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "Forceful arguments" made against a community are still just arguments.
    I agree he has a right to make whatever statements he wants (although having advocated insurrection against the government is going a bit far), and to give money where he wants. However, people can also respond accordingly (as long as they respect the rights of others doing so).

    I think his serving on the board on NOM is pretty troubling, since they have a history of spreading untruths, refusing to comply with laws about disclosing funding, and for going abroad to advocate for anti-gay legislation (see their recent involvement in advising on and praising Russian's new anti-gay laws).

    Still, I wouldn't let that stop someone from seeing the Ender's Game movie (which apparently doesn't profit OSC personally, anyway), but personally I'm not going to buy any more of his books.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    14,019

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I agree he has a right to make whatever statements he wants (although having advocated insurrection against the government is going a bit far), and to give money where he wants. However, people can also respond accordingly (as long as they respect the rights of others doing so).

    I think his serving on the board on NOM is pretty troubling, since they have a history of spreading untruths, refusing to comply with laws about disclosing funding, and for going abroad to advocate for anti-gay legislation (see their recent involvement in advising on and praising Russian's new anti-gay laws).

    Still, I wouldn't let that stop someone from seeing the Ender's Game movie (which apparently doesn't profit OSC personally, anyway), but personally I'm not going to buy any more of his books.
    You can always pirate them! (PM me for further details.)
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You can always pirate them! (PM me for further details.)
    Hah! Thanks for the offer, but I use the library or do without. I like his earlier stuff better, anyway.

  9. #19
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    I love his books - even the unpopular ones. I wanted to wretch when I discovered his stance on homosexual rights a couple months back, especially since he earned my respect by questioning the belief systems he was reared to accept.

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "Forceful arguments" made against a community are still just arguments.
    Yeah. Hitler made some of those.


    ^^ YAY! I just Godwin'ed the thread! Woo hoo!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

Similar Threads

  1. Ender's Game *SPOILERS*
    By Ginkgo in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 01-18-2015, 08:50 PM
  2. Ender's Game Movie
    By cafe in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-11-2014, 02:16 PM
  3. Pope Francis on homosexuals: "Who am I to judge?"
    By Typh0n in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 08-02-2013, 08:06 PM
  4. Ender's Game (2013)
    By Rail Tracer in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 05-12-2013, 10:04 AM
  5. Ender's Game/Shadow
    By Evan in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-10-2008, 01:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO