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  1. #81
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    I get that some parts of the world are still very discriminatory, and that's not right (as are many things in less developed parts of the world). Unless you're advocating to improve things in absolute human rights shitholes like China, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia etc., perhaps stop playing victim because you have it pretty damn good.
    I don't want to single you out here, but I think this kind of statement is absolutely horrible. It's like saying "stop complaining about your broken arm because you still have your legs". If everybody had this kind of attitude there would be next to no social progress.

    Just look at the WEF's Global Gender Gap Report for crying out loud: The USA is #23 in the worldwide ranking, Canada is #20 and the UK is #18. There is still a lot to do. There is still a considerable wage disparity, there is still clear political misrepresentation, there is still a whole damn lot of ignorance regarding gender roles and the supposed limitations of both genders. And both genders suffer from this.

    I could ask you the same question question I already asked @Blackmail! (who hasn't aswered yet) in post #74:

    My country is now governed by an 80% majority coalition which means that the opposition will only make up 20% of parliamentary seats. The limit for openening an investigative committee and many other important functions is 25% which means that this new opposition is basically powerless. They will also only have 12 minutes of every hour of debating time.

    Would you tell the people who are worried by this that they should shut the fuck up and be glad they don't live in North Korea?
    If a considerable number of female members say that they feel uncomfortable because of the hostility towards women and the chauvinism on here simply saying "shut up, you whiny bitches, you are imagining things!" is no solution.
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  2. #82
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    ...very discriminatory, and that's not right (as are many things in less developed parts of the world). Unless you're advocating to improve things in absolute human rights shitholes like China, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia etc., perhaps stop playing victim because you have it pretty damn good.
    I have actively worked in third world countries, advocating and helping volunteer at teaching efforts for children (particularly female students though men were welcomed and did attend) in one of those 'shitholes'.

    Do you know what I noticed when working with people in other countries?
    It is really hard to think that we can make any real progress in areas like that when we cannot even make progress in our own territory--where language barriers, cultural divides, and other ethnocentric factors are not an issue.

    The statistics are stagnant at best.. and even with people fully acknowledging a problem exists, there is always some way to push the solution to the side so we don't have to deal with the problem.

    Your logic makes no sense. I'm still going to fix things in my own backyard if I can even if others don't have a yard at all. I know there are homeless people out there. But I'm not going to neglect my house and stop improving on it just because I'm not dedicating my time at a soup kitchen right now.
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  3. #83
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    @Salomé,
    I suppose you view yourself as a kind of heroine, as a new Simone de Beauvoir.
    Not really. It would be pretty ridiculous of me to compare starting a couple threads on a handful of inconsequential Internet forums discussing topical issues with authoring the definitive feminist work of my (or arguably, any) generation. I mean, that kind of arrogance is reserved for the Gallic peoples.

    the situation of women's right in Western Europe can not be compared, even for a second, to what they endure anywhere else.
    While women ostensibly have greater legislative freedoms here than in many parts of the globe, our statistics on rape and domestic violence are nothing to be complacent or smug about. Women in some communities in Western Europe are still denied basic freedoms, genitally mutilated and "honour" killed. I don't think we ought to get too hung up on the geographic location of atrocity. Abuse can and does happen everywhere. Enough small, (of themselves inconsequential) local actions may accumulate and have global consequences.

    It's far from perfection, of course, and in some European countries there are still obvious differences in salaries between men and women. But as many prominent feminist figures pointed (in France, Elizabeth Badinter and Monique Wittig), there is a growing absurdity in some so-called feminist fights in our overprivileged countries, especially when too many feminists still delve in "a perpetual posture of victimhood", even in Sweden.
    Badinter even said that contemporary feminism in Europe "has become essentialist, and focus too much on the hatred of men and especially men's sexuality".
    Why do you feel the need to bring that up here? Sounds suspiciously like, "why don't you just STFU, you've never had it so good"? I mean, unless you can point out any other possible relevance? Have you seen anything in this thread that advocates the hatred of men? Seems like a pretty defensive / dismissive posture to adopt. Not sure that it moves the discussion forward.

    What I mean is that if you ask me if feminism is still important in 2013, I'd say yes, and that it remains the greatest challenge for mankind ever. But then, I think to what I see in Africa and Muslim countries, countries where I have lived and worked. What women endure there is absolutely terrifying. I have sometimes helped many local NGO dedicated to women's education, or victims of collective rapes (In some African countries, almost a fourth of women confessed they had been the victim of a rape). Male chauvinism is so disgusting in those countries that sometimes, I confess that I can develop strong misandrist feelings.
    A fourth? So... 25%? Coincidentally, the same number of women sexually assaulted on American college campuses while they are trying to get an education. A number which is steadily growing. I guess they should STFU too, right? I mean, they're allowed to vote, they're allowed to drive, they're allowed an education. Fucking women, eh? Never happy.

    But when I return to Europe... no frankly...

    The oppression of women here is a joke compared to what I've witnessed... let's say... In Russia for instance (my current partner is a Femen, and she is afraid of being arrested everytime she gets back to her home country). There are LOTS of feminist fights and challenges to take of course... but NOT ANYMORE in Sweden, Germany the UK or France.
    I didn't realise women were no longer raped or beaten in Europe. This is amazing progress and deserves world acclaim! I guess it's just in my backward country that 1 in 5 women are the victims of domestic violence, with 2 women killed by their partners every week and 230 raped every day, while rape conviction rates are 1 in 100. Nope. Nothing for feminism to do here whatsoever. You gals are out of a job.

    I suffer occasionally from migraines. Not a life-threatening condition, but nevertheless one which impinges upon my quality of life. I'm aware that other people suffer from epilepsy, neuralgia and brain tumours. That these conditions are more serious is behind dispute. Does that mean I should just suffer in silence though and be grateful I don't have something much worse? Or does it make more sense that I strive for optimal health? After all, not doing so doesn't help anyone less fortunate, and neglecting anything health-related can lead to more serious issues developing unchecked.

    Of course, I have noticed during the past decade that a reactionary form of male chauvinist speeches is growing amongst our far right or our religious militants. And those speeches are more and more common, and sometimes, it's true that I can trace their influence even here, on Typo-c. But nonetheless, I think it's a epiphenomenon, and that reactionary forces are, by definition, fighting against the course of history.
    It will only be an epiphenomenon if we continue to oppose it. There were many people in Europe who probably thought Hitler was an epiphenomenon, which is what allowed him to accrue power unchecked. History is what we make it. Progress doesn't just happen because it ought to.

    I respect your right to be apathetic, I just think it's misguided. I know it's unjustified.
    But you don't need to justify yourself to me, and I don't need to justify myself to you. Ain't Freedom grand?

  4. #84
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    "women can't"
    wear pants in Tuscon (haha, in reference to a law established during the wild west where I'm from)

    "girls can't:"
    get pregnant in the summertime (???)
    I didn't ask you to post your chat-up lines. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    A twist on women should not "drive".

    A day to defy this law in SA:

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...n_drivers.html
    In the event, most women were scared off by threats of retribution. Only 60 took part. The campaigner's website was hacked. "Reason for the hacking: I am against women driving in the land of the two holy shrines".
    A cleric, Sheikh Nasser al-Omar, described the campaign as "a conspiracy".
    Another claimed that driving damages a woman's ovaries, so you see, it's for their benefit really. They'll either be pulled out of their cars and raped or beaten or damage their reproductive capability. To suggest otherwise is "a conspiracy".

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99P03520131026

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My comment was general, and not specifically about our interactions. Interesting that you chose to personalize it. If you wish to understand my intentions, feel free to ask. If you are going to label anyone who doesn't see eye-to-eye with you "a perpetual fly in the ointment", though, I may decide it is not worth my time to answer.
    Thank you for the clarification. So... you did understand the nature and method of the experiment. You had the tools at your disposal to perform the experiment. You felt it worthwhile to do so. You did so. But, oops! did not like the results you got. So you altered the parameters of the experiment until you got the results you wanted.

    You know, in some circles, they would call this acting in bad faith. Mala fides. As a scientist, it would certainly destroy your credibility. Seems like a strange and rather ugly thing to want to do... yet sadly, it's a pattern I've noticed with your participation in my threads. I tend to put this kind of behaviour down to an imaginary power trip.

    I suppose I could press you for an explanation regarding your intentions, but in my experience people who act in bad faith are rarely honest about them. So I'll pass. Of course, if I've completely misunderstood you, do feel free to PM me to discuss.

  5. #85
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I didn't ask you to post your chat-up lines. :P
    Remember, kids. When the girl's on top, she can't get pregnant. Cuz that's how gravity wurks.

  6. #86
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Now you're giving away my chat-up lines...

    *gags you*

  7. #87
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    Christ. The (presumably white) male versions of these searches are mere sitcom misunderstandings by comparison.

    (I don't mean to throw race or religion in to detract from the issue at hand, but I thought I'd throw in other interesting lines of comparison.)

    While I do wonder what sort of measure Google Autofill actually provides--I have to say that, as a tool that everyone uses and is familiar with, Google searches would make for an impactful campaign.
    Last edited by garbage; 10-27-2013 at 12:42 PM. Reason: edit

  8. #88
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    Google, that paragon of oppression.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That being said, I wouldn't give Western Europe a free pass. Italy especially remains a place where sexist tendencies remain strong, including strong inequities in the workplace and the home, and sexual objectification of women in media, politics, and elsewhere. The high profile promiscuity of former prime minister Berlusconi is just a particularly egregious example. See, for instance:
    How long have you been living in Italy (especially larger cities in the north) vs. reading wikipedia articles about it, if I may ask?

    Do you honestly believe that the majority of young-to-middle-aged italian men are similar to Berlusconi (which, incidentally, is 77 years old) in outlook and attitude?

    Do you believe that reading a random blog gives you a realistic picture of a society?


    (My own experience: almost all women my age (25-35 years) in northern Italy work full or part time. The only ones who try to go for the "berlusconi-maiden-like" attitude are those who could not even manage to get past high school and use "beauty" as last resort)
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  10. #90
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    How long have you been living in Italy (especially larger cities in the north) vs. reading wikipedia articles about it, if I may ask?

    Do you honestly believe that the majority of young-to-middle-aged italian men are similar to Berlusconi (which, incidentally, is 77 years old) in outlook and attitude?

    Do you believe that reading a random blog gives you a realistic picture of a society?


    (My own experience: almost all women my age (25-35 years) in northern Italy work full or part time. The only ones who try to go for the "berlusconi-maiden-like" attitude are those who could not even manage to get past high school and use "beauty" as last resort)
    While I understand how frustrating it is to have your country judged and stereotyped, nothing of what you said directly contradicts what Coriolis said. The fact that women work does not mean that there is equality. Berlusconi is a wrack and I have yet to meet an italian who admits to having voted for him, but somebody must have at some point.

    Anyway, Italy is number 71 in the World Economic Forum's Global Gender Gap ranking - directly after Romania! Only Hungary, the Slovak Republic and Greece have worse results in Europe.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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