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  1. #111
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    Exactly. Moreover, this higher expectation of men/lower expectation of women in terms of rationality, self-sufficiency and independence is harmful to women, as it is to men.
    Further, I'd go so far as to say in the US, at least, certain environments are more hostile to boys than they are to girls (e.g., the modern school), and that's not seen as much of a cause for whatever reason.
    It's seen as a major cause for concern - people constantly ranting about "the demise of guys" and "the end of men".

    In this country, the Minister for Universities and Science suggested that white, working-class boys should be offered "positive discrimination" when applying for university places. Yet in all those decades when girls where underachieving, everyone assumed it was because they were "naturally inferior". Astonishing.

  2. #112
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What did you learn that was different? The whole issue is about ranking of results.
    Thus you invalidated your results and we leaned nothing at all other than that you like to proclaim your imagined superiority and put other people down, which is old news. Your post was made in bad faith. You continue to act in bad faith by asserting you were acting as a scientist and not as an individual with a petty personal agenda. I don't believe for a moment anyone is daft enough to buy that BS, and neither should you. Ironically, instead of being this paragon of objectivity that you would so like to be seen to be, you are one of those people who seems unable to demonstrate the minimum level of objectivity required to separate the message from the messenger. This is unfortunate, because it makes you seem really inconsistent and not worth taking seriously.
    I will ignore the highlighted as the kind of ad hominem attack that we seem finally to be recognizing as unhelpful here.

    As for what I learned that is different - that is a legitimate question. Let's start with an article about the very search technique Salomé wants to examine, namely Google's Misogynistic Autocomplete Suggestions: Who's Responsible?.

    Autocomplete suggestions are served up by an algorithm that takes into account the popularity of certain search phrases, the localion of the person searching, the freshness of the search query and a person’s previous searches.
    Autocomplete uses one algorithm based on the factors listed above.

    We know Google has the ability to censor autocomplete, and does so on a case-by-case basis, so what about this latest campaign by UN Women? What should Google do about those autocomplete suggestions, and was the UN Women campaign a success?

    No doubt the campaign had a powerful message that helped raise awareness. Countless people, after seeing the campaign, undoubtedly went to Google to try and replicate those results, therefore propagating the issue (since autocomplete suggestions are based in part on how many people search for something).
    Apparently because of how this algorithm works, the UN campaign itself may very well be influencing the results obtained by subsequent searchers. The results are still worth considering, but with this limitation understood.

    Google appears to use a different and much more extensive set of criteria for determining search results order, including what appears on the first page. From the Google website:

    Our challenge in search is to return only the most relevant results at the top of the page, sparing people from combing through the less relevant results below. Not every website can come out at the top of the page, or even appear on the first page of our search results.

    Today our algorithms rely on more than 200 unique signals, some of which you’d expect, like how often the search terms occur on the webpage, if they appear in the title or whether synonyms of the search terms occur on the page. Google has invented many innovations in search to improve the answers you find. The first and most well known is PageRank, named for Larry Page (Google’s co-founder and CEO). PageRank works by counting the number and quality of links to a page to determine a rough estimate of how important the website is. The underlying assumption is that more important websites are likely to receive more links from other websites.

    To give you an example of the changes we make, recently we launched a pretty big algorithmic improvement to our ranking—a change that noticeably impacts 11.8% of Google searches. This change came to be known as “Panda,” and while it’s one of hundreds of changes we make in a given year, it illustrates some of the problems we tackle in search. The Panda update was designed to improve the user experience by catching and demoting low-quality sites that did not provide useful original content or otherwise add much value. At the same time, it provided better rankings for high-quality sites—sites with original content and information such as research, in-depth reports, thoughtful analysis and so on.
    So, looking at the results of autocomplete vs. the first page shows how the two different algorithms, or sets of criteria, handle prompts like "women should . . . ".

    Returning to the first article, about misogynistic autocomplete results:
    t’s worth noting that not all search results are bad if you start a statement with “women should” and ignore the autocomplete suggestions altogether, then hit enter. Case in point:



    So this brings up an interesting dichotomy about what is and what could be in the search results by simply following a suggestion.
    It seems I am not the only one interested in the differences in results returned by the two search methods. As with most investigation, it all comes down to what your purpose or question is. If you want to assess keyword popularity influenced by region and personal habits, better to look at Autocomplete, understanding that the exercise itself will influence results. If you want to see what actual content Google associates with each search term, better to look at the first page results, where many of the results suggested by Autocomplete are demoted by the more comprehensive and content-based search criteria.
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  3. #113
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Your father family's likely came to American a couple of decades ago. The Italy he knows may not even exist anymore, in many places. Your typical northern italian young man can sometimes even come across as metrosexual rather than macho.

    You indirectly claimed that the typical aspiration of an italian woman is to be a Berlusconi's velina look-a-like, and the typical aspiration of an Italian man is to be a Berlusconi look-a-like. This is the main point I objected to (not the absence of women in STEM fields! Nor to the absence in equality of pay). You understand how this claim has very little to do with your reply, right? And how it can be rightfully assumed to be second-hand overblown nonsense, if you haven't lived there yourself?
    My father remained in contact with his Italian relatives over the years, and visited from time to time, but that is beside the point. Specific accounts from my family are anecdotal at best. I prefer to rely on what statistics I find in the professional literature, and the extensive journalistic accounts of people, many of whom do live in Italy. You would lke to discount my opinion simply because I do not live in Italy myself, but I am not sure how you would discount theirs. If any comments we make about situations outside our direct personal experience are going to be dismissed as "second-hand overblown nonsense", there is very little we will be able to discuss together.

    My claim is that Western Europe still suffers from sexism. I gave Italy as an example precisely because I have followed the situation there more than in other places, say Spain or Switzerland. The Berlusconi ideal of womanhood is something I have seen described in many sources. I cannot vouch for it personally, but see it as a rather blatant form of sexism, and one which underlies those other more objective issues like equal pay, share of household duties, and representation in STEM fields.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #114
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    I think it's fine and proper to care about gender equality in your own country. What I despise is using arguments of gender equality to play victim and use that as an excuse for unfortunate and unsuccessful life circumstances, where in reality, laziness and poor choices led to those circumstances. And of course, there are those who just like to find anything to complain about. I haven't noticed anyone in particular on this forum doing this, but I'm explaining that I have a high index of suspicion for it.
    I find people who have those unfortunate self-destructive personalities and situations tend to blame anything they can--gender inequality hardly being the limit on that.

    But I don't feel that's what the OP is addressing. I think it'd be interesting to start a different thread on this topic--where do you draw the line between judging someone's situation and thinking people ought to take personal responsibility--but this thread isn't regarding that so far as I could tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    Really? Women are beaten down into submission at every turn and gesture? I'm not sure if I've ever encountered a single woman who has felt like she is beaten down into submission every single day because she is a woman.
    An expression used.. but I still feel it an accurate expression nonetheless. I have absolutely experienced it in my life--and being a woman speaking to other women--I certainly have encountered many. The army (ironically enough, a place women go to to become stronger and more independent) is crawling with them.

    Mayhap you've never tried to truly delve into a woman's situation and see her point of view.. Or mayhap you happen to live in a particularly happy place. I live in a large city--and I've traveled to many developing countries. My view on the subject is a little more jaded.

    Social pressure to conform to a standard is certainly not borne by women alone.
    Absolutely you are correct on that. But the OP isn't addressing men at all. This OP is about women still being less than equal in ways we absolutely should be--and what I gathered from your posts was that we had more important things to be doing than complaining about that. My reply was that this is important, and that without those barriers we'd be making some great things happen by now.

    Your response to all of that is that men have barriers too. Absolutely they do. Imagine how awesome we'd be doing right now if no one wasted energy and time on either of those barriers. We'd be kicking global problem ass right now, as a unified humanity. But.. we're not doing any of that. So, I'm going to keep the OP to the women's side of things, as that's what it was discussing in the first place.

    I grew up with boys, work mostly around men, and most of my friends are male. I definitely understand at least a good chunk of the pressure they're under as well, and in no way do I invalidate that or exclude it by saying that overall men still have the upper hand in society.

    For what it's worth though... Society is rapidly moving to a situation where things like physical strength are shrinking in demand as more sedentary jobs and white collar work becomes attractive and appealing as it leads to our more modern day survival.

    Again, you're looking at social issues that are not isolated to women. In fact, men are 3x more likely to be murder victims than women.
    I wasn't the one bringing up social issues though. You were. I was merely addressing this one social issue--and its own facet of that.

    Sure, everyone's a victim so no one's a victim so stop whining and get to work. Right?
    You really don't get anything accomplished that way.

    Out of curiosity.. does it seem odd to you that you walk into a thread about women's social inequality, and immediately start saying that men have issues too? I feel like this could give you some clues about how you've never encountered any women that feel suppressed and submitted in their lives.. I can think of at least a dozen times where I was genuinely in fear of my life from a man for the pure simple reason that I was a woman and that man thought he could have whatever he wanted as a result.

    In comparison to my male friends, who most have never felt truly threatened by a female ever in their lives.. (there are exceptions. I've seen some craazy girlfriends from my friends.. but mostly this is true I've found) and the females they were subjected to being overbearing and awful they were really and truly at their own mercy. They could have left those girls anytime and chose not to.. So I really don't feel too awful for them. (I know, I'm a bad person because I don't care if people stick with people that beat them up and verbally abuse them.. but that's how I am.)
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  5. #115
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My claim is that Western Europe still suffers from sexism. I gave Italy as an example precisely because I have followed the situation there more than in other places, say Spain or Switzerland. The Berlusconi ideal of womanhood is something I have seen described in many sources. I cannot vouch for it personally, but see it as a rather blatant form of sexism, and one which underlies those other more objective issues like equal pay, share of household duties, and representation in STEM fields.
    That's a fairly different picture from what the link you posted depicted. Of course there's still a long way to go before equality of sexes will be reached, and of course Berlusconi's stance on the matter may have worsened the general image and/or underlying attitude of the population (even though, again, only 25% of 60% of the voters actually voted for his party during the latest elections...).
    Remember that Berlusconi is 77 years old. He does not represent the way people below 40 live their lives and relationships. Actually, after the '08 crisis, there's more and more couples where the woman is the sole earner (because typically the man held a "riskier" but better paid job)...
    There are no statistics (that I know of) on the perception of women as velina look-a-like or the awe of men towards figures like Berlusconi, so I'm afraid that anedoctal evidence is the only way to obtain relevant information on this very qualitative matter.

    One thing is definitely true: in most cases, when a couple has kids, the woman will either stay at home or work part time during the first 3-4 years of the kids' life. That can be a big hit to their career. But the same happens in Germany, as far as I see (I now live there).
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  6. #116
    Ratchet Ass Moon Fairy Comeback Girl's Avatar
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    Tried this in my mother tongue. It's so peaceful! Both for men and women. Yay for people who speak my language!
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  7. #117
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Kind of relevant: Another guy bringing awareness to the situation (in his country)

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  8. #118
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I will ignore the highlighted as the kind of ad hominem attack that we seem finally to be recognizing as unhelpful here.
    Ignore it by highlighting it? Lol. It's not. Then again, we've established you're not very good at identifying logical fallacies.

    Technology appears to not be your forte either. Nice scrambling for justification, but you totally messed up here.
    I'll explain just once more, because the rest of the class has moved on and you're holding everyone up.

    Autocomplete returns ACTUAL SEARCH STRINGS typed by ACTUAL PEOPLE ordered by popularity (tweaked as discussed).

    If you type in "women should" and nothing else, this does not affect the ranking of search terms associated with that fragment. So the campaign isn't influencing anything. Even if it were, (by causing more people to search for "women should xxxx") this is still completely irrelevant to the legitimacy of the campaign since it is based on actual results prior to launch. /derp

    If you want to see what actual content Google associates with each search term, better to look at the first page results, where many of the results suggested by Autocomplete are demoted by the more comprehensive and content-based search criteria.
    Irrelevant. This isn't about Google. Google's criteria for returning pages is heavily determined by commercial factors. Which is why you had an advert in your results. It is also heavily skewed by the search engine optimisation performed by webmasters to ensure their page appears in the first page of results.
    In other words, it tells you next to nothing about what PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY SEARCHING FOR. Therefore, your results are invalid.

  9. #119
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Since you object to highlighting, I have simply not quoted the ad hominem portions of your last post. Truly, they say more about you than about me, and can remain in your original post (unless you edit it) for others to see. My usual habit is to ignore them and focus on the legitimate content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Autocomplete returns ACTUAL SEARCH STRINGS typed by ACTUAL PEOPLE ordered by popularity (tweaked as discussed).
    Not in dispute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    If you type in "women should" and nothing else, this does not affect the ranking of search terms associated with that fragment. So the campaign isn't influencing anything. Even if it were, (by causing more people to search for "women should xxxx") this is still completely irrelevant to the legitimacy of the campaign since it is based on actual results prior to launch.
    Apparently it does, according to the source of the first article I linked. This is the Search Engine Watch page, whose description reads:

    Search Engine Watch provides tips and information about searching the web, analysis of the search engine industry and help to site owners trying to improve their ability to be found in search engines. The links below provide more information about the site and its operation.
    Not being a search engine expert, I will tend to trust authorities like this as long as what they claim make sense, and I don't have contradictory evidence from sources of comparable caliber.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Irrelevant. This isn't about Google. Google's criteria for returning pages is heavily determined by commercial factors. Which is why you had an advert in your results. It is also heavily skewed by the search engine optimisation performed by webmasters to ensure their page appears in the first page of results.
    In other words, it tells you next to nothing about what PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY SEARCHING FOR. Therefore, your results are invalid.
    My point exactly: the algorithm for returning pages is different. I wanted to see what it returned vs. the autocomplete popularity contest. The results are invalid only if I claim them to be something they are not. That shouldn't be hard to understand.

    Part of the problem may be that the goal or purpose of your investigations with autocomplete remains unclear. Unless you intended it simply as a parlor game?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #120
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That's a fairly different picture from what the link you posted depicted. Of course there's still a long way to go before equality of sexes will be reached, and of course Berlusconi's stance on the matter may have worsened the general image and/or underlying attitude of the population (even though, again, only 25% of 60% of the voters actually voted for his party during the latest elections...).
    Remember that Berlusconi is 77 years old. He does not represent the way people below 40 live their lives and relationships. Actually, after the '08 crisis, there's more and more couples where the woman is the sole earner (because typically the man held a "riskier" but better paid job)...
    There are no statistics (that I know of) on the perception of women as velina look-a-like or the awe of men towards figures like Berlusconi, so I'm afraid that anedoctal evidence is the only way to obtain relevant information on this very qualitative matter.

    One thing is definitely true: in most cases, when a couple has kids, the woman will either stay at home or work part time during the first 3-4 years of the kids' life. That can be a big hit to their career. But the same happens in Germany, as far as I see (I now live there).
    The highlighted was mentioned in many of the more recent references I have read, but I am not even focusing on that. I have seen many articles lament the objectification of women in media, from entertainment to advertising to news reporting. Yes, the reports are anecdotal not statistical, but their number and consistency suggests there is something to it.

    I know that it is still the norm for women to stay home with small children in nations other than Italy - it happens in the U.S. as well. The few young Italians I know personally describe this situation as much more institutionalized in Italy than the U.S. at least (not sure about other nations). Also, for the many women who are working, statistics suggest their men have been slow to pick up a corresponding share of household duties. As I mentioned at the outset, though, Italy is just one example of all this. The U.S. is another. Sexism will manifest differently in each nation, due in part to cultural differences.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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