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  1. #91
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    While I understand how frustrating it is to have your country judged and stereotyped, nothing of what you said directly contradicts what Coriolis said. The fact that women work does not mean that there is equality. Berlusconi is a wrack and I have yet to meet an italian who admits to having voted for him, but somebody must have at some point.
    Yes, it's true that no equality of pay has been reached, but that's a very far cry from saying that women generally aim to be the "velina of Berlusconi" and men mostly think of women as "sexual objects" as posted in Coriolis' article. Which was my main point - I never claimed that women earn as much as men -, and still stands, and definitely contradicts the link that Coriolis posted.

    (Btw: During the latest elections, Berlusconi got 25% of the 60% standard voting population. That's 15% of the total population, and the largest majority of them (as of late) comes from the working class in the south, which understandably isn't very internationally minded. It's far from surprising that nobody abroad has ever met anyone who voted for Berlusconi.)
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  2. #92
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Not really. It would be pretty ridiculous of me to compare starting a couple threads on a handful of inconsequential Internet forums discussing topical issues with authoring the definitive feminist work of my (or arguably, any) generation. I mean, that kind of arrogance is reserved for the Gallic peoples.
    Exactly. For all the talk here, I would be interested to learn how each of us addresses sexual assault and other forms of gender bias IRL. It's easy to talk a good game when nothing is at stake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Thank you for the clarification. So... you did understand the nature and method of the experiment. You had the tools at your disposal to perform the experiment. You felt it worthwhile to do so. You did so. But, oops! did not like the results you got. So you altered the parameters of the experiment until you got the results you wanted.

    You know, in some circles, they would call this acting in bad faith. Mala fides. As a scientist, it would certainly destroy your credibility. Seems like a strange and rather ugly thing to want to do... yet sadly, it's a pattern I've noticed with your participation in my threads. I tend to put this kind of behaviour down to an imaginary power trip.

    I suppose I could press you for an explanation regarding your intentions, but in my experience people who act in bad faith are rarely honest about them. So I'll pass. Of course, if I've completely misunderstood you, do feel free to PM me to discuss.
    You obviously don't understand much about how science is done. It is frequently instructive and completely legitimate to read about an experiment, then modify it to learn something different. One must simply state one's methods clearly to show the difference, as I did and you obviously understood. (If you feel the need to make disparaging remarks about someone, best stick with analogies you understand.) If you think you are misunderstanding me and wish to correct that, feel free to ask. Otherwise, it doesn't bother me since it is a rare and so far inconsequential occurrence.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    How long have you been living in Italy (especially larger cities in the north) vs. reading wikipedia articles about it, if I may ask?

    Do you honestly believe that the majority of young-to-middle-aged italian men are similar to Berlusconi (which, incidentally, is 77 years old) in outlook and attitude?

    Do you believe that reading a random blog gives you a realistic picture of a society?


    (My own experience: almost all women my age (25-35 years) in northern Italy work full or part time. The only ones who try to go for the "berlusconi-maiden-like" attitude are those who could not even manage to get past high school and use "beauty" as last resort)
    Yes, most women work as in other parts of the western world, but it seems they still do the vast preponderance of the housework, unlike other places. Berlusconi is an egregious example, but the media would not be so fixated on this female ideal if it did not sell, and sell to the younger generation, too.

    To answer your questions: I have not lived in Italy myself, but my father's family is from Italy, so I have extensive second-hand knowledge of the situation. Also, if you think my reading on the subject is limited to "a random blog", you assume incorrectly. Due to my family background, I take special interest in the situation in Italy, and see the same kinds of comments coming up in disparate places, from mainstream media, to studies of education in various nations, to the lot of women in STEM fields. I am always saddened to see what is said about Italy. They should know better, but then so should we all.
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  3. #93
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    No.

    Women should
    Women need to
    Women ought to
    Women must
    Women would do well to

    The problem isn't with any of these expressions; it is with what follows them sometimes.
    Right, thank you for saying so. The logic-muscles were twitching.

    Anyway, on-topic, great idea for a "campaign," but I feel it's hard to get much out of such a campaign. People will type it in their search browsers, see it and say, "Oh wow, isn't that a shame?", and then mostly forget about it in a few weeks. Unless it's supposed to be the "start of something greater."
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  4. #94
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I could ask you the same question question I already asked @Blackmail! (who hasn't aswered yet) in post #74:
    I didn't answer because there is no question and if ever there would be one, the comparison is so incredibly stupid and out of place that sometimes, polite silence is preferable.
    Have you ever lived in a totalitarian state?



    If a considerable number of female members say that they feel uncomfortable because of the hostility towards women and the chauvinism on here simply saying "shut up, you whiny bitches, you are imagining things!" is no solution.
    I would not say that you are imagining things, but some of you seem incredibly frightened when there is no reason to be. And I should add, some of you seem to be very unconfortable with many classic aspects of men's sexuality. And this is especially true for Salomé.

    You live in Western Europe, so believe me, you have nothing or almost nothing to fear. Police is everywhere, you benefit from a state of law, and corruption is low.
    You claim that there is still a lot to do : I don't agree, unless you work for immigrant populations. The issues you point are almost completely solved in the younger generations, which are more and more equalitarian than their elders.

    And frankly, continuing to play the role of the victim here is an insult to all those women who really are victims and who would require our help outside of our rich, overprivileged societies. Typical bourgeois reactions...

    If Salomé and yourself seem so fond of feminism, then go to Africa, and then we should talk after.

    Remember what Wittig wrote about the "perpetual posture of victimhood" of many contemporary feminist radicals. And the paradox is that this posture is the best way to create a definitive frontier between genders: that would be the opposite of feminism, of emancipation and equality.
    Remember also what De Beauvoir wrote: "you're not born a woman, you eventually become one".

    (This being said, I love you both)
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  5. #95
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    This is like talking to a wall!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I didn't answer because there is no question and if ever there would be, the comparison is so incredibly stupid and out of place that sometimes, polite silence if preferable.
    Have you ever lived in a totalitarian state?
    No, I haven't. That is the entire point I am trying to make here. I don't have to. Nobodyhas to in order to be justified in complaining. It is silly and condescending to suggest that you have to live in a totalitarian state to be able to make justified complaints about politival ills and it is silly and condescending to suggest that you have to live in Saudi Arabia or Aphganistan to make justified complainst about social ills.


    Your stance seems to be based on 2 points:
    #1: There is nothing lefgt to do in the West - this is blatently false and can easily be countered by tons of material. I invite you to do a google search or talk to a Western female
    #2: If somebody elsewhere in the world has it worse you need to shut up and count your blessings - this one is based on pathetically low standards. Is "at least this isn't Saudi Arabia or Somalia, etc" really good enough?

    It sounds like you have seen so much misery in Africa that you have become blind to the injustices at home right in front of your doorstep. Like somebody who comes home from the war and no longer feels like part of his original civilian society. This too has been argued to death already. That somebody else is dying of starvation elsewhere or getting tortured does not mean that I should not fight for "luxury problems" that are issues in my society. One things has next to nothing to do with the other.

    With that kind of argument you might as well shut down any kind of dissent anywhere because there will always be somebody worse off, often very much so. The situation of women in totally different societies really has zero to do with whether or not the struggle of Western women for full equality is justified or not.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  6. #96
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    This is like talking to a wall!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I didn't answer because there is no question and if ever there would be, the comparison is so incredibly stupid and out of place that sometimes, polite silence if preferable.
    Have you ever lived in a totalitarian state?
    No, I haven't. That is the entire point I am trying to make here. I don't have to. Nobodyhas to in order to be justified in complaining. It is silly and condescending to suggest that you have to live in a totalitarian state to be able to make justified complaints about politival ills and it is silly and condescending to suggest that you have to live in Saudi Arabia or Aphganistan to make justified complainst about social ills.


    Your stance seems to be based on 2 points:
    #1: There is nothing lefgt to do in the West - this is blatently false and can easily be countered by tons of material. I invite you to do a google search or talk to a Western female
    #2: If somebody elsewhere in the world has it worse you need to shut up and count your blessings - this one is based on pathetically low standards. Is "at least this isn't Saudi Arabia or Somalia, etc" really good enough?

    It sounds like you have seen so much misery in Africa that you have become blind to the injustices at home right in front of your doorstep. Like somebody who comes home from the war and no longer feels like part of his original civilian society. This too has been argued to death already. That somebody else is dying of starvation elsewhere or getting tortured does not mean that I should not fight for "luxury problems" that are issues in my society. One things has next to nothing to do with the other.

    With that kind of argument you might as well shut down any kind of dissent anywhere because there will always be somebody worse off, often very much so. The situation of women in totally different societies really has zero to do with whether or not the struggle of Western women for full equality is justified or not.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
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  7. #97
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    This is like talking to a wall!

    I am a wall, and I am silly and condescending.

    And you are a privileged bourgeois Western European woman complaining about how her doorstep look.

    And I'm fed up with this "perpetual victimhood posture". Just act if you want to change something.

    What do you think we Jews had to do after the war? Should we still complain or take action?

    The motto in Salomé's avatar is correct : "If you want to achieve greatness, stop asking for permission". I'd only wish Salomé would understand what this really means rather than playing the role of a fake, clownish pseudo-anarchist.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I don't want to single you out here, but I think this kind of statement is absolutely horrible. It's like saying "stop complaining about your broken arm because you still have your legs". If everybody had this kind of attitude there would be next to no social progress.

    Just look at the WEF's Global Gender Gap Report for crying out loud: The USA is #23 in the worldwide ranking, Canada is #20 and the UK is #18. There is still a lot to do. There is still a considerable wage disparity, there is still clear political misrepresentation, there is still a whole damn lot of ignorance regarding gender roles and the supposed limitations of both genders. And both genders suffer from this.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I have actively worked in third world countries, advocating and helping volunteer at teaching efforts for children (particularly female students though men were welcomed and did attend) in one of those 'shitholes'.

    Do you know what I noticed when working with people in other countries?
    It is really hard to think that we can make any real progress in areas like that when we cannot even make progress in our own territory--where language barriers, cultural divides, and other ethnocentric factors are not an issue.

    The statistics are stagnant at best.. and even with people fully acknowledging a problem exists, there is always some way to push the solution to the side so we don't have to deal with the problem.

    Your logic makes no sense. I'm still going to fix things in my own backyard if I can even if others don't have a yard at all. I know there are homeless people out there. But I'm not going to neglect my house and stop improving on it just because I'm not dedicating my time at a soup kitchen right now.
    If this is an issue you genuinely care about then that's all well and proper. The reason why I am skeptical as to motive is because there are far more serious problems, so why not devote your time and energy to those if your real motive is to make the world a better place?

  9. #99
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    If this is an issue you genuinely care about then that's all well and proper. The reason why I am skeptical as to motive is because there are far more serious problems, so why not devote your time and energy to those if your real motive is to make the world a better place?
    Because that's a matter of opinion entirely. You think that fixing issues that "matter" would make the world a better place. To me, if the mentality of society doesn't change to prevent things from occurring in the first place, any efforts made will be for naught.

    Is the priority of people starving in the world, on a global scale, much more important than whether or not strangers I don't care about treat women equally in the world? Absolutely.

    But we all pick and choose our battles. It is human nature. To accept anything else is to deny what is. You don't see this as an issue because, honestly, you don't have to deal with it at all.

    We (humanity) do what is best for us--because when *we* are at our best, we can help others at our best. Is it better for the family as a whole if I give my sister all of my money because technically I'm spending it on frivolous things while she is struggling financially? Yes. But am I going to do that when I know full and well I won't be happy and doing the things I worked hard to do? No. Because I will build resentment for that. No. Instead, I help her with the absolute most important issues as they come along when I can.. and I ensure I make time for myself in the mean while.

    We cannot help others at full capacity when we ourselves are not at max capacity. (It's the whole love yourself to love others dynamic.) I think if women didn't have so many stressors and worries and aren't beaten down into submission at every turn and gesture.. if our daughters and sisters didn't have to grow up in a world comparing them to supermodels they'll never be, or to the men they weren't born to be, or anything else.. then maybe we'd be getting a whole lot more done on other, more important fronts. There are a lot of girls that do stupid, stupid things and focus and even ruin their lives on the issue of gender inequality. A lot of men needlessly beat on, insult, degrade, and even kill women from social brainwashing on the topic. Imagine if all of those .. just dumb.. things were focused towards literally anything else? Anything at all. Are there other issues as well out there? Yes. But does that make this one less important? No. Not at all.

    I think trivializing this topic by comparing it to another, complex, but completely in a different realm issue is not the answer at all. They're apples to oranges. I mean, if we were going to go that route, if you're so aware of all of these major issues why are you posting on a forum instead of saving the whole world with all of your spare time and energy? Because you're human, and you do things within what you feel to be your realm and scope. (Or you really don't give a shit about any issues.. in which case, why post in here so adamant about fixing more 'important' topics?)
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  10. #100
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Because that's a matter of opinion entirely. You think that fixing issues that "matter" would make the world a better place. To me, if the mentality of society doesn't change to prevent things from occurring in the first place, any efforts made will be for naught.

    Is the priority of people starving in the world, on a global scale, much more important than whether or not strangers I don't care about treat women equally in the world? Absolutely.
    Sexism is undeniably worse in many parts of the world than in the west. The relative rule of law and absence of corruption here are a significant factor, but we are still left with at best a kinder, gentler sexism. It rests on the same basic principle, namely that women and men are so fundamentally different that double standards are not only acceptable, but necessary and even "natural".

    Ironically "greater" problems like starvation, illiteracy, and poverty in less developed parts of the world are most readily addressed by improving the lot of women in those areas: giving them access to education, health care, political rights, and otherwise enabling their economic and social self-sufficiency.
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