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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't get this lack of self-honesty.

    I mean, I applaud you for at least having the self-honesty and self-objectivity to realize you are this way.

    But I don't get the acceptance of oneself as such, without the concomitant desire to eliminate an obviously negative trait from oneself. It's like you'd rather shove your head in the sand and continue along the wrong path than honestly evaluate yourself, figure out whether what has been said of you is true, or the ways and degrees to which it is true or not true, and then eliminate any of the bad things you discover about yourself that might be true.

    / In possibly related news, I am earnestly considering whether my tritype might actually be 614
    Reacting poorly to unsolicited advice in a fit of pique doesn't mean you're never going to consider or internalize it. As a counterphobic 6, I'm sure you realize that people can combat something at the same time that they're giving it real internal consideration. The processes aren't mutually exclusive even though they seem to be.

    It takes time and effort to face up to the picture in the mirror and external reactions may not reflect what's going on inside. I often think the more strongly someone reacts, the more they're actually mulling over it internally, just because it's not that easy just to forget a real thorn in the side. At least, that's frequently the case with me when I receive unpleasant criticism. It's not always a conscious process though. I can convince myself that I don't care what they say and then at one moment, the veil suddenly lifts and I'm like "Oh shit." People just process stuff at their own pace.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Reacting poorly to unsolicited advice in a fit of pique doesn't mean you're never going to consider or internalize it. As a counterphobic 6, I'm sure you realize that people can combat something at the same time that they're giving it real internal consideration. The processes aren't mutually exclusive even though they seem to be.

    It takes time and effort to face up to the picture in the mirror and external reactions may not reflect what's going on inside. I often think the more strongly someone reacts, the more they're actually mulling over it internally, just because it's not that easy just to forget a real thorn in the side. At least, that's frequently the case with me when I receive unpleasant criticism. It's not always a conscious process though. I can convince myself that I don't care what they say and then at one moment, the veil suddenly lifts and I'm like "Oh shit." People just process stuff at their own pace.
    Agreed (for ~98% of it).

    But that's why I actually think what Sinead did could ultimately be effective.

    It's what I said about digging that thorn in deep enough, such that, even if the outward response is one of mocking and dismissal, internally the person is actually going, "fuck! there is truth to this!", and can't help but start adjusting, in some sense, because of it.

  3. #153
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    when i first read the OP i thought they might mean this:


    and you know what? i'd be a hell of a lot more inclined to agree - i think there is something genuinely screwed up about a pop idol twirking in lingerie designed with the fashion sensibilities of tweens.

    ...but then i googled the actual video in question.. and... OMG she has lady parts! did anyone else know this? all this time her voice came out of...
    ...


    can someone please explain to me this equation:

    more skin = more exploitation

    ?

  4. #154
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    LOL, at me for thinking this will add anything new at this point in time, but:

    I don't actually associate any feelings towards this narration I concocted, but the first thing that came to mind when all three singers in the performance were on stage were the three creatures before Dante, as he was lost in the woods. The next was this thought of each being the mouth of whatever hellspawn the industry has become.

    Also:

    What I think is interesting is that everyone is reacting to Miley (she was the worst, admittedly) but are glossing over the background and all these people who are dancing beside her. The entire landscape was riddled with licentiousness and it just seems not only manufactured, but it is to me this message that any criticism brought against us (the industry) can be fought by these three "tongues". Any voice can be twisted into this monstrosity that enough people (look at the popular culture thread) will accept and pass unprocessed, ready to dement others and dilute the waters even further.

    Finally:

    On Sinead O'Connor's response. I think she was trying to remove herself from the image Miley was copying, but nonetheless it is a truth that needs to be iterated time and again. Doesn't really matter how she did it anymore, and the response she was given in return isn't probably the most surprising, but I didn't see the attack against her coming and was very telling of someone who has probably been corrupted rather thoroughly by something, whether it was of her own belief or being fed to her by those who hate the chance of losing the status quo. As such something important for her needs to be questioned and the outcome of that question is hers alone.

  5. #155
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, at least that much is settled. :P



    If that's all you think is behind it, then I think you're missing out on what Sinead and others have already said: Sinead didn't write it just because she's some random famous person, but because Miley specifically named her as an inspiration for her current work, in the biggest music magazine in the world. For that, and other reasons (not the least of which is that, in addition to Miley's mention, as someone who spent her youth in the music industry spotlight, Sinead is kind of a reasonable role model for Miley), Sinead has every right to say whatever the hell she wants about Miley's behavior as of late.



    I think part of the problem is that she doesn't seem to have this.

    Sinead even talked about this in her letter. I don't know if she has anyone who'll do this.

    Sinead even goes on to say that the people who are advising her are probably doing so for their own self-interest ($$$).

    If this is the case, then having someone outside her immediate inner circle trying to blow a hole in that bubble might be just what's needed.

    Miley's father was an attention-seeking piece of shit who had his own "no press is bad press" moments/strategies back in his own day.

    He seems to give the thumbs up so easily to every single thing she does, I wouldn't be surprised if he was helping orchestrate it.

    Hence Sinead saying, "Don't let these people push you to pimp yourself around in order to fatten their wallets."
    Yeah, this is probably true. I can't believe I'm participating in this thread to be honest. I admitted when I first posted that I had done zero research on the facts of this whole story. I didn't know what Sinead said, I just was vaguely aware of the idea of an "open letter", but I do get kinda frustrated with people choosing ONE celebrity and just deciding that they're the worst and should be shamed publicly. I saw that article, and just posted it on impulse. Just the whole idea of all of the "gasp!" over Miley Cyrus, Kim Kardashian, Britney Spears with her shaved head, Lindsay Lohan with her drugs or whatever she does just makes me a little queasy. Famous people, and unfamous people can get kinda effed up sometimes. Blasting it in the media and treating it like scandal makes me wanna like take down every paparazzi and defend that poor celebrity like a mama bird. That's all I was reacting to. I'm glad Sinead seems to be concerned about her. I just wish she woulda called instead.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  6. #156
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    can someone please explain to me this equation:

    more skin = more exploitation?
    I still don't understand how more skin = more attractiveness.

    There are two images that were posted on other threads that I don't have time to track down right now. One was a cartoon showing on one side, a woman in a burka; on the other side, a woman in very revealing western attire. The caption asked something like "which woman is oppressed?" In both cases, it's all about control. Men expecting women to take it all off is no different from expecting them to cover it all up.

    The second image was similar to the one below, from a recent democratic convention. Obama is wearing the standard business suit; his wife has a sleeveless dress, just above the knee in length. You don't have to be an exotic dancer, hooker, or pop singer to bare much more than the average man in public.

    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Let me just get my deceased grandpa's glasses.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    Let me just get my deceased grandpa's glasses.
    That's what she said. HEY-YO!!!
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I still don't understand how more skin = more attractiveness.
    i suppose you could say that - to the limted extent that (seen skin = arousing ) { skin++ -> more arousing++ }

    it has a limited degree of effectiveness though:
    - first by depending on the attractiveness of the skin owner. both physically and otherwise.
    - then it is somewhat overshadowed by the Theiss Titillation Theory, "The sexiness of an outfit is directly proportional to the possibility that a vital piece of it might fall off", because the subconscious expectation of maybe seen more skin is more effective then actually seen more skin.
    - there is also an accumulation of the anticipation effect over time: i am betting younger long-time Miley Cyrus fans that had sexual thoughts about her prior would be getting much more of an effect then anyone here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The second image was similar to the one below, from a recent democratic convention. Obama is wearing the standard business suit; his wife has a sleeveless dress, just above the knee in length. You don't have to be an exotic dancer, hooker, or pop singer to bare much more than the average man in public.

    i thought the reason women often found men attractive in suits was due to the sexualizing of status...

    that's being said, it's certainly not exclusive - this probably got a few swing votes:

  10. #160
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i suppose you could say that - to the limted extent that (seen skin = arousing ) { skin++ -> more arousing++ }

    it has a limited degree of effectiveness though:
    - first by depending on the attractiveness of the skin owner. both physically and otherwise.
    - then it is somewhat overshadowed by the Theiss Titillation Theory, "The sexiness of an outfit is directly proportional to the possibility that a vital piece of it might fall off", because the subconscious expectation of maybe seen more skin is more effective then actually seen more skin.
    - there is also an accumulation of the anticipation effect over time: i am betting younger long-time Miley Cyrus fans that had sexual thoughts about her prior would be getting much more of an effect then anyone here.

    i thought the reason women often found men attractive in suits was due to the sexualizing of status...
    Should I conclude from the exposed skin disparity, then, that men don't want to appear attractive to women?

    What amazes me is that even in situations where sexual attractiveness is not supposed to be a factor (e.g. political conventions or business meetings), "professionally attired" women can get away with far more exposed skin than men, and choose to do so. It just makes me cold to look at.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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