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  1. #81
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Dude it's just like the corporations man. We've gotta tear it all down.

    Quit harshing my mellow.
    Yeah man. Totally.

  2. #82
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It really is nice to avoid wasting time on bleating idiots.
    Dear kettle,

    You're priviledged. Born on third base and think you hit a triple.
    And calling people idiots can get you banned, so please keep doing it!

  3. #83
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Do we favor equality over success, innovation and creativity?
    I favor effectiveness. A system that limits opportunity to a narrow segment of the population does a disservice to individuals and society alike. Too many individuals are unable to realize their potential as human beings, and society foregoes the contributions they otherwise might make. This is why a level (as near as possible) playing field is so important. Equality of opportunity justifies the inevitable inequality of outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    You're priviledged. Born on third base and think you hit a triple.
    And calling people idiots can get you banned, so please keep doing it!
    I know this is not addressed at me. I will point out as one of those privileged folks, that some of us realize it, and consider we therefore have a greater obligation to contribute to society. I will probably draw flack for saying this, but the Kennedy family has exemplified this mentality.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #84
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I know this is not addressed at me. I will point out as one of those privileged folks, that some of us realize it, and consider we therefore have a greater obligation to contribute to society. I will probably draw flack for saying this, but the Kennedy family has exemplified this mentality.
    That comment was not directed generally…
    Notice that I wrote 'hit a triple', meaning that incognizance of the origin of one's privilege is the real issue and reason for the criticism.

    One could argue that I too am privileged. Being white, male and middle class in America puts me in a better position than most people on earth. It's the constant reiteration of the dominant culture and one's place in it, as if it's some natural writ, that chaps my ass.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I favor effectiveness. A system that limits opportunity to a narrow segment of the population does a disservice to individuals and society alike. Too many individuals are unable to realize their potential as human beings, and society foregoes the contributions they otherwise might make. This is why a level (as near as possible) playing field is so important. Equality of opportunity justifies the inevitable inequality of outcomes.
    Opportunity is there for anyone in the US.

    The ease with which one takes advantage of that opportunity is what varies.

    And certainly, our institutions should be geared towards giving everyone a fair shot.

    However, there is only so much the gov't can do. They can not address the cultural or parenting differences among various demographics, with public policy.

    I know this is not addressed at me. I will point out as one of those privileged folks, that some of us realize it, and consider we therefore have a greater obligation to contribute to society. I will probably draw flack for saying this, but the Kennedy family has exemplified this mentality.
    Of course we have a greater obligation.

    However, I'm not about to have that conversation (or any conversation since he's on ignore) with someone like that.

  6. #86
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Opportunity is there for anyone in the US.

    The ease with which one takes advantage of that opportunity is what varies.
    That's no small detail and I don't see how it's different from China or Russia. It's not a compelling case to say "the poor have an opportunity to succeed, it's just one 1 millionth the size of those who are born rich"

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And certainly, our institutions should be geared towards giving everyone a fair shot.

    However, there is only so much the gov't can do. They can not address the cultural or parenting differences among various demographics, with public policy.
    Of course there is only so much the government can do, but it can do a hell of a lot more than you give it credit for.

    And I think you like to jump to quickly to a cultural explanation and leave it at that. So let's suppose the government can't change those things (which is highly debatable), it probably doesn't need to in order to address the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Of course we have a greater obligation.

    However, I'm not about to have that conversation (or any conversation since he's on ignore) with someone like that.
    My experience is that the conversation does not go well with you, and I'm not sure what you think those obligations really are.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #87
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Opportunity is there for anyone in the US.
    That's simply not true. If you attend some place like Harper High School in a rough Chicago neighborhood, where 29 students were shot last year of a 500-something student body, you're not going to be able to focus on physics if you've got to be vigilant enough to make it through high school alive.

    http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...chool-part-one
    So I ask him, what if I'm a kid and I really don't want any part of this gang stuff? How can I avoid it?

    Officer Washington
    You can't. It's not going to happen.

    Linda Lutton
    He says it used to be possible to be neutral-- what they called a "neutron."

    Officer Washington
    There is no neutrons anymore. It used to be if you play sports, or you were academically better than the average kid, they didn't bother you. Now it's different. It doesn't matter. If you live here, you're part of them. You live on that block, or you live in that area, you're one of them. The way they get to school, they have to come to school with one of these factions, one of these gangs. They're going to come to school with them. They don't have a choice.

    Linda Lutton
    I can hardly believe that a Chicago police officer is telling me this, admitting that kids don't have a choice about being gang affiliated. I've never heard police talk like this. Later, I ask Officer Washington if he'll get in trouble for saying this. I mean, aren't cops supposed to just tell kids, hey, don't join a gang?

    Officer Washington
    I'll put it like this. I'm not saying it's OK to be in a gang. And I'm not saying I approve of it, I agree with it. If I could take them all and say, "hey, look here, ain't no gangs," I'd do that. But this ain't a fairy tale.

    Linda Lutton
    And this is the point. Gangs aren't the bad kids in the corner here. They're the defining social structure in the school. It's who you sit with at lunch, the kids you say hi to in the hallway. It's the water everybody swims in.

    Assistant principal Adams guesses that fewer than 10% of Harper students are actually gangbanging. That is, active on the block, involved in crime. He thinks all the rest of the kids in the school are just caught up by where they live.
    And the government could make things a lot easier for them.

    Examples include:
    1.) having a nation-wide 6-week waiting period for first-time gun purchasers, which will filter down into fewer off-the-grid unregistered guns on the street (as evidenced by other countries who've done similarly). Because guns that kill people are not the ones bought by gun enthusiasts that know how to respect them, and who shoot at the range or in the bush. Guns that kill people are the ones bought impulsively or through illegal channels. Strangling the impulsive, first-time buying options filters down to the street market, resulting in fewer weapons. This only works when it's nationally implemented, because state borders don't have border guards.
    2.) Making birth control and abortion freely available, as it would decrease kachillions of dollars of government spending for all sorts of other public programs
    3.) Stop funding schools based on how their students perform on tests. Students aren't going to do well on that test until they've gotten a decent education, and vice versa--it's a catch-22.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  8. #88
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Do we favor equality over success, innovation and creativity?
    We must.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #89
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Opportunity is there for anyone in the US.

    The ease with which one takes advantage of that opportunity is what varies.

    And certainly, our institutions should be geared towards giving everyone a fair shot.

    However, there is only so much the gov't can do. They can not address the cultural or parenting differences among various demographics, with public policy.
    You probably think Cinderella's stepmother was perfectly fair when she told Cinderella, "Of course you may go to the ball; as long as you get all your work done, and can find something suitable to wear." This is what "opportunity" looks like for too many people, especially children/young people. Oftentimes the government needs not so much to give something to people, as to take something away, such as the obstacle of crime and gang violence that @Usehername referenced. Most such strategies are actually more cost-effective in the long term than doing nothing, but people, even government (politicians seeking reelection) are too readily satisfied with short-term gain.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #90
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And certainly, our institutions should be geared towards giving everyone a fair shot.

    However, there is only so much the gov't can do. They can not address the cultural or parenting differences among various demographics, with public policy.
    Can you address these statements, not from an idealogical standpoint, but from a practical standpoint? How does it look on the ground, etc...

    I know this thread is about healthcare, but I just read something interesting today, that the education level of an individual's parents play a significant role in his or her academic success in the United States (and some other countries, I think they mentioned Germany and Poland), while in other countries, the individual's academic success was not statistically linked to the parents' education level to as high a degree.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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