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  1. #71
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    I can't imagine how successful the US economy would be if we were just the slightest bit more selective with capitalism... but noo. "COMPETITION SMASH ALL, ALL THE TIMES, IN ALL AREAS. MAKE MORE MONEY" Such "econoclasts" are the economic intellectual equivalent of pubescent high school football players... our economy pays for our one-size-fits-all ignorance and it's not helping anybody.
    You make a very good point here. A "one size fits all" approach is not the best way to manage a country. In some cases (like healthcare IMO) where all (or a huge majority) of the citizens have a need for a service a goverment run (or highly regulated) approach is optimum. Even the US does it to some degree. Can you imagine if the transportation system (i.e. roads) was all left to private industry and you had to pay tolls on every street depending on what "corporation" built that particular road? Or if Fire/Police Departments were for profit corporations where if you don't pay your monthly "coverage" fees they don't show up? Chaos would result.

    I would be willing to bet if Obamacare can get off the ground in the US, and then get reformed to make it even better over the ensuing years (maybe quite a few) such that it begins to approximate a Canadian or North Europe style sytem, Americans would never turn back. I'm not sure it will get off the ground though, or not get thrown out immediately if the Republicans win the next election.

  2. #72
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think this sentence strikes at the heart of the matter.

    Should health-care be a for-profit endeavor? Do we favor the value of freedom over the values of compassion and dignity? The ethical considerations are profound.
    Freedom is just an ideal if one lacks the ability to follow through on choices. Often this comes down to money, with wealthy people having a broader range of feasible options.

    Another way to explain the distinction is to observe that the government exists to promote the common good. Which activities and services, then, are considered essential enough that the government has to step in to insure that they are provided? National security is the obvious one. There is also law enforcement, public safety, and education. Some of these are provided on state and local levels, but all are seen as too important to leave to the private sector.

    The question then becomes whether medical services should be added to these. There are significant public health implications, as in treating epidemics of measles, flu, etc., as well as in the costs of chronic conditions like heart disease and diabetes. Ultimately we all pay the costs of this, whether through higher fees from providers to cover the currently uninsured, or lost work productivity, or emergency measures taken for serious outbreaks. It is more cost effective to everyone to take advantage of: (1) preventive measures that are like the proverbial stitch in time, saving nine; (2) economies of scale in pooling customers and providers; and (3) the additional cost savings of consolidating to one system where all the office staff currently employed to learn and navigate the patchwork of existing insurance plans can transition to direct patient care, or some more worthwhile activity.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think this sentence strikes at the heart of the matter.

    Should health-care be a for-profit endeavor? Do we favor the value of freedom over the values of compassion and dignity? The ethical considerations are profound.
    Do we favor equality over success, innovation and creativity?

  4. #74
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Do we favor equality over success, innovation and creativity?
    This has been your Ayn Rand moment for the day

  5. #75
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    Oh ignore, how I love thee, let me count the ways.....

  6. #76
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Oh ignore, how I love thee, let me count the ways.....
    Since I know that you will check this thread anyway:

    I thought you were tough? Can't take a little push back? What happened to your iron spine? I'm just a soft loser, right? But you're still running away...keep running until I can't hear you anymore.

  7. #77
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    It really is nice to avoid wasting time on bleating idiots.

  8. #78
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    One problem here the order of events needed for causality. The individual mandate ("individual responsibility!") was a conservative idea until the Democrats adopted it.
    It was an idea of some conservatives that a.) was far from universally supported among conservatives even as a theoretical construction, b.) included other measures so that people theoretically did not have to pay three or four times as much with an individual mandate in place, and c.) as one idea out of many it did not face much scrutiny from Constitutional conservatives, who subsequently illustrated the implications of an individual mandate on what little remains of Constitutionally limited government, thereby moving the individual mandate permanently beyond the bounds of even grudging acceptance within American conservative thought.

    In other words, the individual mandate of Obamacare cannot credibly be characterized as a conservative idea that Republicans only oppose for opportunistic partisan reasons (I don't remember if you were claiming this, but its usually what people claim when they bring it up).

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It really is nice to avoid wasting time on bleating idiots.
    bro, you say stuff like this like three times a day. i think you have a problem.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    bro, you say stuff like this like three times a day. i think you have a problem.
    Dude it's just like the corporations man. We've gotta tear it all down.

    Quit harshing my mellow.

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